SON finals Togliatti Sat/Sun July 20th/21st Live on BT Sport

[Fromafar 10,363]

26 minutes ago, iainb said:

Come on, that's all very easy to say after the event, even without Tai and a fit Cook, Lambert... and Bomber you'd surely expect to beat the Germans and be giving Sweden and Australia a run for their money, along with Germany. GB probably had the most equal "Pair(s)" out there and I would have expected a number of 3-3's and the odd 4-2

Yet again, Poland prove themselves to be the biggest chokers in world speedway, just 3 world cups in 20 years outside of their home country and 1 world individual champion in the last I don't know how many years

When the SWC first started, nearly 20 years ago now, it was such a refreshing change, a festival of speedway, there's so much wrong with the SoN as a "Team" event I'm not even going to get started on it, fine run it as a pairs event but they really do need to get back to a SWC type event, no matter who keeps winning it, maybe just don't keep having it in Poland every year

But they kept saying they were there, commenting on the weather "here" and the atmosphere "here"... are you suggesting they were lying?

I've got to disagree with that, you can't ignore last years Silver medal. I think most teams proved that they have an elite number 1, as we do and a capable number 2, as we do. Any team losing their elite rider would have been struggling, Holder for Doyle? Lindback for Lindgren, Bjerre for Madsen, G Laguta for Emil, Zmarzlik. I think what made us look so bad was Bomber's performance, who in all honesty, who, before the event would have known he'd have been so so so so far off the pace? Personally I would have gone for Danny King in that spot based on both their starting abilities

Name the riders who will be competitive on World Stage in the next couple of years bar Woffy and Lambert.There is some young talent out there but they have along way to go as the U21 Team showed.

[mikebv 10,278]

9 minutes ago, Fromafar said:

Name the riders who will be competitive on World Stage in the next couple of years bar Woffy and Lambert.There is some young talent out there but they have along way to go as the U21 Team showed.

As Tai said, beating riders in the UK doesn't make you a top rider..

The young lads have to go up against the more battle hard young Poles in particular more often..

These lads are facing enormous pressure to perform every time they go to a track so can handle far better the jump to the next level when their U21 reserve time finishes..

As we have seen ongoing for a good many years. Our lads can easily be feted by too many followers as "a future World Champion" when in reality they are just the best of a very ordinary domestic bunch..

Get them overseas at an early age and see if they sink or swim..

The likes of Drabik, Smektala, Kubera et al, all face that challenge every Sunday through the season...

 

[iainb 5,017]

41 minutes ago, chunky said:

1) Absolutely not. This is 2019, not 1980, and we simply don't have anyone close to the quality of Woffinden and Lambert. Oh yes, Cook is next in line, and guess what, he was injured too! You can't just think we should be beating everyone because we are British, or because Germany used to be crap. Remember, it would have been even worse had they had Smolinski instead of Riss...

2) As proud as we were of Lambert, last year's silver was pretty much courtesy of one of the greatest INDIVIDUAL performances in speedway history. That was no indication whatsoever of the strength of GB as a nation.

3) It is most unfair to say it was just down to Bomber's performance; we were missing Woffinden, a fit Lambert, and a fit Cook. As I said elsewhere, how many of the teams in attendance would have survived the loss of their top three riders?

1) I don't think we should be beating everyone because we are British, I see the quality of a fit Lambert and Cook and I think they should be beating the likes of Germany and challenging the non elite riders in the SoN field when fit... I was responding to "If anyone expected anything other than last then you need to give your head a wobble"... and if  Cook and Lambert had been fit we wouldn't have been so far adrift

2) Like Emil's performance over the weekend. Or Zmarzlik if the Poles had won

3)That's absolutely not what I said at all, what I said was Bomber's performance made GB's performance as a whole look a lot worse

33 minutes ago, Fromafar said:

Name the riders who will be competitive on World Stage in the next couple of years bar Woffy and Lambert.There is some young talent out there but they have along way to go as the U21 Team showed.

As yet there is nobody and without a stronger domestic league or regular test matches there's unlikely to be. I found it very interesting listening to Jaimon Lidsey the other week on BT Sport where he said he came over to Europe and went straight to Poland and then came over to Britain to take 2 steps back to take 3 steps forward. Australia must also be worried that after Max Fricke there seems to be very little and I suggest that if Aussies keep coming over to ride in the British Leagues that they will also stagnate and not reach a higher level, it's no coincidence that GB, Australia and the USA are no longer serious players on the world stage, other than those riders that progressed from the UK when the league was a lot lot stronger than it is today

[Fromafar 10,363]

6 minutes ago, iainb said:

1) I don't think we should be beating everyone because we are British, I see the quality of a fit Lambert and Cook and I think they should be beating the likes of Germany and challenging the non elite riders in the SoN field when fit... I was responding to "If anyone expected anything other than last then you need to give your head a wobble"... and if  Cook and Lambert had been fit we wouldn't have been so far adrift

2) Like Emil's performance over the weekend. Or Zmarzlik if the Poles had won

3)That's absolutely not what I said at all, what I said was Bomber's performance made GB's performance as a whole look a lot worse

As yet there is nobody and without a stronger domestic league or regular test matches there's unlikely to be. I found it very interesting listening to Jaimon Lidsey the other week on BT Sport where he said he came over to Europe and went straight to Poland and then came over to Britain to take 2 steps back to take 3 steps forward. Australia must also be worried that after Max Fricke there seems to be very little and I suggest that if Aussies keep coming over to ride in the British Leagues that they will also stagnate and not reach a higher level, it's no coincidence that GB, Australia and the USA are no longer serious players on the world stage, other than those riders that progressed from the UK when the league was a lot lot stronger than it is today

The Aussies have a few more than GB.Fricke,Holder, Kurtz,Lindsay, Stewart,Gilmore,Thompson,Cook could all step up a notch IMO.They are already a step ahead.

[iainb 5,017]

2 minutes ago, Fromafar said:

The Aussies have a few more than GB.Fricke,Holder, Kurtz,Lindsay, Stewart,Gilmore,Thompson,Cook could all step up a notch IMO.They are already a step ahead.

The Aussies have Doyle and Holder, both brought up in the UK when the leagues were a lot stronger. Kurtz hasn't really kicked on in the last couple of years, the others that you mention remain to be seen what, if anything, they'll do, I don't see how they'll step up a notch as they're in exactly the same boat as GB, weak league and no test matches, the exception is Fricke. He does seem to have applied himself and although not quite there yet is approaching world class... IMO

[Fromafar 10,363]

10 minutes ago, iainb said:

The Aussies have Doyle and Holder, both brought up in the UK when the leagues were a lot stronger. Kurtz hasn't really kicked on in the last couple of years, the others that you mention remain to be seen what, if anything, they'll do, I don't see how they'll step up a notch as they're in exactly the same boat as GB, weak league and no test matches, the exception is Fricke. He does seem to have applied himself and although not quite there yet is approaching world class... IMO

Lindsay and Gilmore are already in Poland, I’m sure Cook will be there soon.Interesting.Can the  Young Brits get into Poland or Sweden is the question.

[Sings4Speedway 3,247]

The thing the Aussies have over the Brits is that failure isn't an option. Travelling around the world to the UK or Poland they have no choice other than to make it or head home, brutal but its true, there is no safety net whereas in the UK riders get chance after chance to find out if they are average or not. Aussies heading to Europe must be confident in their abilities and confident that they will make it. There are obviously those who don't and they either end up heading home (or loitering in the UK 2nd tier) but those who remain are then in with a genuine chance of pushing on to world level.  

[mikebv 10,278]

47 minutes ago, Fromafar said:

The Aussies have a few more than GB.Fricke,Holder, Kurtz,Lindsay, Stewart,Gilmore,Thompson,Cook could all step up a notch IMO.They are already a step ahead.

With Poland being their 'entry point' more and more..

Maybe its visa related? Or maybe its seen to be the quicker way forward to get them up to a higher level quicker. (Sink or Swim)..

Lidsey's comments were quite telling when he said he learnt on the "big, well prepared tracks in Poland" which gave him a good grounding..

We need our young lads out there sharing the same experiences..

No coincidence for me that both Tai and Robert Lambert spent a lot of their formative years not riding and learning in Britain. No comfort zone for them..

Moved them on several notches I reckon..

[Happy Hunter 370]

On 7/20/2019 at 4:48 PM, Steve Shovlar said:

Poor track. Like Leicester with grandstands. Not great at all.

Just for the record Leicester's track is 53 metres shorter than the one in Russia. I have also seen better racing at Beaumont Park!

[acef 795]

45 minutes ago, mikebv said:

With Poland being their 'entry point' more and more..

Maybe its visa related? Or maybe its seen to be the quicker way forward to get them up to a higher level quicker. (Sink or Swim)..

Lidsey's comments were quite telling when he said he learnt on the "big, well prepared tracks in Poland" which gave him a good grounding..

We need our young lads out there sharing the same experiences..

No coincidence for me that both Tai and Robert Lambert spent a lot of their formative years not riding and learning in Britain. No comfort zone for them..

Moved them on several notches I reckon..

I completely agree but they won’t take the risk of not being paid or being dropped after a poor performance because that is the risk.

In this country we just don’t have enough raw talent. By that I mean kids who just step on a speedway bike and hit the ground running. Dan is the closest we have to that and actually did very well in Poland in his first season, but that’s actually a case in point given it seems that relationship has soured for whatever reason. The British riders can comfortably stay and make a living in the British league with no aspirations to be successful internationally because they don’t need to, and it’s too much risk.

I would actually forget Poland for our kids and focus on getting into Sweden first where there is more stability to provide a stepping stone. The poles are very good at looking after their own.

The other solution is to strengthen the British league with international riders but we just can’t afford to do that. It’s the devil and the deep blue sea for the sport here.

We have some decent young kids coming through now but they will learn nothing riding this league and will just get caught up in the merry go round.

[Midland Red 2,383]

18 hours ago, PHILIPRISING said:

WASN'T their best night, I agree, but commentating from a studio thousands of miles away will always be an issue.

Whereabouts is “thousands of miles away” then, Philip????

[OveFundinFan 4,142]

Problem that arises with GB youngsters getting all this experience in Poland or Sweden is they will earn better money there, will have a yearning for the competitive racing and not bother racing in the UK. This has been known to happen before and not too long ago and the uproar was deafening. 

[chunky 6,093]

2 hours ago, iainb said:

1) I don't think we should be beating everyone because we are British, I see the quality of a fit Lambert and Cook and I think they should be beating the likes of Germany and challenging the non elite riders in the SoN field when fit... I was responding to "If anyone expected anything other than last then you need to give your head a wobble"... and if  Cook and Lambert had been fit we wouldn't have been so far adrift

2) Like Emil's performance over the weekend. Or Zmarzlik if the Poles had won

3)That's absolutely not what I said at all, what I said was Bomber's performance made GB's performance as a whole look a lot worse

Even with a fit Lambert and Cook, I don't think we should be challenging teams like Australia and Sweden. If we are to challenge at all, we need Woffinden.

The Poles were disappointing, but they still have several world-class riders outside of Zmarzlik. Outside of Woffinden, we don't...

If you think Harris's performance made us look worse, then that is up to you. I prefer to use facts like we couldn't take a point off anyone yesterday - even when we did get in front. Doesn't matter how far behind he was...

[Fromafar 10,363]

Harris has to be embarrassed by the standard of his equipment over the years.Its just a saga.You don’t see many other top men struggle so much.

[Buttons 370]

2 hours ago, Fromafar said:

Harris has to be embarrassed by the standard of his equipment over the years.Its just a saga.You don’t see many other top men struggle so much.

But Harris is not a top man anymore, he also rides in the Championship in uk, he is no longer in the GP's and is not at the same standard now.