mikebv 10,292 Posted March 4, 2022 2 hours ago, ch958 said: Div 2 in particular would need to drop its 'strength' and include far more Div 3 riders. Wouldn't bother me - I love watching up and comers. To be honest the main issue the sport has is costs. I don't know enough to say how bikes could be cheaper but somebody must. For me the day they allowed 4 valvers was the thin end of the wedge. If D1 riders can make a living by reducing costs we can put an end to the ludicrous DU/DD situation and charge less to get in to reposition the sport in the leisure market where it belongs - 12/13 quid. Puts on tin hat 100% re Div 2.... Best of both worlds currently, loads of Div 1 riders and the best of Div 3, and can ride on any night of the week, except Monday and Thursday, using the weekends which is a key time for the entertainment industry.. Standardised engines are for me one of the two major ways to reduce costs... The other (less popular I am sure), being "just pay less" to semi pro riders... Use standardised engines for league racing, sealed units, and similar to F1, any replacement parts must be itemised and records kept of each key part within the machine... Any changes can be viewed on Zoom, Skype etc and signed off by scrutineers watching, and then confirmed as still legal at the next meeting when the riders arrive with the bike.. Two basic GM bikes and machines per rider is what? £10k? And if any rider wants to compete at international level then they can do this using whatever level of machinery they wish to do so... Meaning, if they want to spend £30k (and often well above) on machinery replacing a box standard bike with best clutch, best carbs, best handlebars, best furry dice etc etc, to pursue individual dreams (which has very little in the way of positive impact to crowds at club level), then they can, but this kit wont be allowed to be used in domestic Speedway... 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
noaksey 345 Posted March 4, 2022 3 hours ago, bruno said: Sorry to be a doom monger but even if just 4 if these tracks open up which is a strong possibility that needs another 28 riders from somewhere . Even with doubling down don't think there's enough out there That's the $64,000 question Oxford would have struggled for a team this year if Kent had continued Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
enotian 562 Posted March 4, 2022 1 hour ago, noaksey said: That's the $64,000 question Oxford would have struggled for a team this year if Kent had continued Yet it's hardly unfathomable is it. At the end of each season you have a fair idea of how many riders will be available next season. Once you know how many teams are in the league you then know if there are enough existing riders to supply those teams or how many new riders need to be found, assume 2.00 pointers. Then you add up all those averages of the required/expected rider pool and divide by the number of teams. Then you have a points limit which helps all teams build equally. Not an exact science but better than having teams fielding teams under the points limit from the outset. The masses will complain that the product is weakened but what's better a league of 10 or a league of 14? Where all the teams have a chance of being equally matched? 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
M.D 463 Posted March 5, 2022 6 hours ago, enotian said: Yet it's hardly unfathomable is it. At the end of each season you have a fair idea of how many riders will be available next season. Once you know how many teams are in the league you then know if there are enough existing riders to supply those teams or how many new riders need to be found, assume 2.00 pointers. Then you add up all those averages of the required/expected rider pool and divide by the number of teams. Then you have a points limit which helps all teams build equally. Not an exact science but better than having teams fielding teams under the points limit from the outset. The masses will complain that the product is weakened but what's better a league of 10 or a league of 14? Where all the teams have a chance of being equally matched? Some good ideas The problem is and will be top end strength at div 2 level, I feel this is where some form of regulation needs to be in order to have a competitive league Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikebv 10,292 Posted March 5, 2022 2 hours ago, M.D said: Some good ideas The problem is and will be top end strength at div 2 level, I feel this is where some form of regulation needs to be in order to have a competitive league Every league could have the same... If every rider was listed on here and you had to grade them one to seven, and put ten riders in each grade, I am 100% sure that the vast majority on here would agree on around 90% of the riders with the other 10% being a close call within two grades... Therefore, why not do the same when compiling the teams? One rider from each grade per team... Still use rider's averages, and keep a mean average maximum team points total to ensure no team can pick the best riders from each grade.., 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
M.D 463 Posted March 5, 2022 2 hours ago, mikebv said: Every league could have the same... If every rider was listed on here and you had to grade them one to seven, and put ten riders in each grade, I am 100% sure that the vast majority on here would agree on around 90% of the riders with the other 10% being a close call within two grades... Therefore, why not do the same when compiling the teams? One rider from each grade per team... Still use rider's averages, and keep a mean average maximum team points total to ensure no team can pick the best riders from each grade.., Or even more simplistic, have an overall team limit but a limit on the top 2 or 3 riders within the overall limit. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikebv 10,292 Posted March 5, 2022 42 minutes ago, M.D said: Or even more simplistic, have an overall team limit but a limit on the top 2 or 3 riders within the overall limit. It isnt too difficult to share around the rider talent pool is it...? Which is far more important to the survival/development of the sport than any single team winning any of the trophies on offer.. Lose a team and 600 to 800 fans minimum a week are gone... Where as a trophy winning team wont get anything like that in increased admission numbers... 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ch958 2,395 Posted March 5, 2022 1 hour ago, mikebv said: It isnt too difficult to share around the rider talent pool is it...? Which is far more important to the survival/development of the sport than any single team winning any of the trophies on offer.. Lose a team and 600 to 800 fans minimum a week are gone... Where as a trophy winning team wont get anything like that in increased admission numbers... I'd be hard pushed to name many league winners in the last 5 years across all 3 leagues, its just not that important and in one case it cost the club its existence. You can watch a crap football match and be happy with a 1-0 win = speedway has to be entertaining, results second. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
enotian 562 Posted March 5, 2022 1 hour ago, mikebv said: It isnt too difficult to share around the rider talent pool is it...? Which is far more important to the survival/development of the sport than any single team winning any of the trophies on offer.. Lose a team and 600 to 800 fans minimum a week are gone... Where as a trophy winning team wont get anything like that in increased admission numbers... Must admit I'm not a fan of multiple team building restrictions (I used to enjoy teams with different make ups facing off) BUT there's two good reasons for having them at present: 1. The heat format is biased towards a strong top two. Heats 13 & 15 trump Heat 2. And if you have a strong top 3 (i.e. 3 averaging over 8) there's only three heats you don't have a No1 standard rider in. Take Diamonds vs Pirates this season. King, Lawson and Worrall should go through the card. That's 41 points so they only need 4 points from the other 4 riders for the draw and they're basically guaranteed 3 of those points even if they concede 5-1's in heats 2, 8 and 12/14. Of course nothing is ever guaranteed but you can see that the odds are stacked and it all becomes a bit predictable. 2. If you restrict each team to one rider with an average over 8 you generate more supply than demand and therefore the less wealthy teams can afford to track a genuine No1 standard rider. A quick check of the 2021 CL rolling GSA's and there were 12 riders over 8.00 who are riding in 2022. Would have been easy to spread them about. Some might decide to sit out the CL but even if a team couldn't secure an 8+ No1 at least they wouldn't be facing teams with three of them. The nature of sport has to be fuelled by the desire to win but not at the expense of the product. Otherwise what's the point of winning something nobody is interested in? I guess the answer is Ego. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikebv 10,292 Posted March 5, 2022 1 hour ago, enotian said: Must admit I'm not a fan of multiple team building restrictions (I used to enjoy teams with different make ups facing off) BUT there's two good reasons for having them at present: 1. The heat format is biased towards a strong top two. Heats 13 & 15 trump Heat 2. And if you have a strong top 3 (i.e. 3 averaging over 8) there's only three heats you don't have a No1 standard rider in. Take Diamonds vs Pirates this season. King, Lawson and Worrall should go through the card. That's 41 points so they only need 4 points from the other 4 riders for the draw and they're basically guaranteed 3 of those points even if they concede 5-1's in heats 2, 8 and 12/14. Of course nothing is ever guaranteed but you can see that the odds are stacked and it all becomes a bit predictable. 2. If you restrict each team to one rider with an average over 8 you generate more supply than demand and therefore the less wealthy teams can afford to track a genuine No1 standard rider. A quick check of the 2021 CL rolling GSA's and there were 12 riders over 8.00 who are riding in 2022. Would have been easy to spread them about. Some might decide to sit out the CL but even if a team couldn't secure an 8+ No1 at least they wouldn't be facing teams with three of them. The nature of sport has to be fuelled by the desire to win but not at the expense of the product. Otherwise what's the point of winning something nobody is interested in? I guess the answer is Ego. Years of manipulation in trying to out do another team has driven many a fan away... As has the adhoc Mickey Mouse teams put together using ridiculous rules... And all to try and win something that such manipulative behaviour and self inflicted nonsense, renders any trophy of no real value.. You could say "you couldn't make it up"... However UK Speedway actually have... Absolute crackers that some teams will come to the tapes with little chance of being competitive given the tiny size of the sport, and it's ever decreasing numbers... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
orion 7,615 Posted March 6, 2022 17 hours ago, ch958 said: I'd be hard pushed to name many league winners in the last 5 years across all 3 leagues, its just not that important and in one case it cost the club its existence. You can watch a crap football match and be happy with a 1-0 win = speedway has to be entertaining, results second. Not really .... You could have the greatest track of all time and be as entertaining as you like but if lose the crowds will drop ...Results will always nearly come first 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikebv 10,292 Posted March 6, 2022 3 hours ago, orion said: Not really .... You could have the greatest track of all time and be as entertaining as you like but if lose the crowds will drop ...Results will always nearly come first HOME results certainly... Luckily, there does seem to be a fairly large percentage of fans who attend Speedway that are not too bothered about the result but just enjoy the racing.. Hopefully they will stay on board regardless of any teams' competitive level.. Seems daft though to not align each time better considering no promotion or relegation exists, as that alone would increase the entertainment level and keep more people interested... As we know, using averages alone, given their subjectivity, won't do it... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
enotian 562 Posted March 6, 2022 7 hours ago, orion said: Not really .... You could have the greatest track of all time and be as entertaining as you like but if lose the crowds will drop ...Results will always nearly come first Are todays audience really that one dimensional? The trend for crowd levels would suggest not. Successful teams will certainly attract more through the turnstiles but turning up to watch a guaranteed home win sounds a bit dull. Especially if you're poor away from home and not challenging for honours. Certainly if you're losing at home week after week without being competitive that's a massive turn off but I think the public realise that in a sporting contest there has to be winners and losers but it's the jeopardy that makes it interesting. I think most people are satisfied if their team has performed well and they have been entertained. Which should be exactly what you enable if you have fairly prepared tracks and evenly balanced teams. This is even more important if you're looking to attract streaming income from neutrals. As it stands would you pay to see Poole and home to Newcastle? I'm a Diamonds fan but wouldn't pay to see a guaranteed massive home win in a match of little or no entertainment and zero jeopardy. This win at home at all costs attitude is part of the problem. They even got rid of the 2 points for a close home win "because it felt like a loss". No it added jeopardy and excitement right up to the final heat. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
uk_martin 1,606 Posted March 6, 2022 On 3/4/2022 at 3:45 PM, bruno said: Sorry to be a doom monger but even if just 4 if these tracks open up which is a strong possibility that needs another 28 riders from somewhere . Even with doubling down don't think there's enough out there Exactly the point I've been making for years. Just had a look at the BSPA Rolling Averages to see who's ridden in the UK recently. Deducting those that I know have retired now, (Schlein, Pedersen, Crump etc) and removing duplicate entries, there are now 137 riders featured, including NDL riders. Doing the maths, that's only enough to populate 19.5 teams, or 19 teams and 4 riders spare in case of injuries. And yet there are currently 25 teams in existence, meaning that doubling up is inevitable. And some people seriously want to expand that even as far as 30 teams? Seriously??? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikebv 10,292 Posted March 6, 2022 18 minutes ago, uk_martin said: Exactly the point I've been making for years. Just had a look at the BSPA Rolling Averages to see who's ridden in the UK recently. Deducting those that I know have retired now, (Schlein, Pedersen, Crump etc) and removing duplicate entries, there are now 137 riders featured, including NDL riders. Doing the maths, that's only enough to populate 19.5 teams, or 19 teams and 4 riders spare in case of injuries. And yet there are currently 25 teams in existence, meaning that doubling up is inevitable. And some people seriously want to expand that even as far as 30 teams? Seriously??? And heaven forbid they reduce the amount of riders per team to create "subs on the bench".. Or put clear standard demarcation between the leagues to create aspirational growth, and keep interest in the leagues through relegation and promotion.. The current way is the "only way" now given so many riders need two jobs as a minimum, and that they will have got used to the income over the past years of minimally restricted DU'ing... And even more so it will be "the only way" given Div 2 promoters can use Div 1 level talent each week without the pressure of ever having to ride in the top league, with the extra costs that this brings... If it ain't broken why fix it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
