British speedway is a joke.

[wtf 621]

10 hours ago, THE DEAN MACHINE said:

Poland are as concerned as we are about the bikes getting more expensive, more specialised, it’s just not needed, as with 95% of bike mods in speedway over the last 30years we have multiplied the cost x5 to achieve absolutely nothing, same speed same racing if not worse, it’s not worth it, the cost is ultimately passed on to the fans and we don’t care about what bike it is, i am the biggest speedway bike geek out there, I have many of them, all ages and love messing with engines but it’s a def no no from me 

But this is where it yet again goes back to the clueless rule makers. in 2012/2013 when the titanium ban was lifted everyone consulted, told them, it's not needed, it will just drive up cost, so what did they do? allowed it back in, what did it do? drove up cost. They consulted on Rev Limiters, then go and set a limit that changes nothing regarding servicing requirements and cost.

If you want to stop the Karger type ignitions, then ban them. Unfortunately, the technical knowledge that is around is ignored in favour of those making money out of the sport.

UK speedway will allow itself to die a slow and costly death whilst ignoring what is obvious to most of us. They are terrified of actually making a bold decision and would rather keep putting a Band-Aid over a malignant tumour hoping somehow a miracle will happen

BTW speedway riders being like sheep have largely ignored the Karger ignition since it came out as most didn't understand how it could be used. Everyone jumped on it after Anders Thomsen won his GP on one earlier in the year. They'll be back to buying their £300 clutch levers soon 

[martinmauger 584]

On 9/11/2022 at 9:42 PM, THE DEAN MACHINE said:

Poland are as concerned as we are about the bikes getting more expensive, more specialised, it’s just not needed, as with 95% of bike mods in speedway over the last 30years we have multiplied the cost x5 to achieve absolutely nothing, same speed same racing if not worse, it’s not worth it, the cost is ultimately passed on to the fans and we don’t care about what bike it is, i am the biggest speedway bike geek out there, I have many of them, all ages and love messing with engines but it’s a def no no from me 

What Dean says is true; in the old Weslake days speedway bikes revved to around 9,000RPM, now they often rev to 12,000 or more (!), which is too much for a 4-stroke single cylinder engine.  A bit like riding a regular i.e. not sporty, bike on the road or driving your car in 1st or 2nd gear all the time.  There was an excellent 'lockdown interview', could been by Lee Ashby ?, with Shawn Tacey and one of the posted questions was if 'speedway bikes rev more and produce more power, why aren't more track records being broken ?'.  Tacey said due to the higher revs and modern tyres the back wheel is spinning so many more RPMs faster, I forget the actual figures quoted, & tracks are slicker to cope so not producing hardly any more speed, if any.  I recall a series of Speedway Star articles on the Czech Golden Helmet meeting in Pardbuce (sp?), the 'Star' interviewing winners like Jeremy Doncaster & Jason Doyle.  I forget which it was but one said he was amazed that the winner's times in the older 2valve JAWA days with spindly telepscopic forks and lower power outputs were not that different from more the modern machinery of higher revvimg GMs with leading link forks, better frames etc. Think this was when Ole Olsen semi-seriously suggested changing back to 2 v JAWAs, I don't think the Pardubice (sp?) track has changed since it was built, possibly a bit slicker surface ?.  So, yeah, as Dean said; spend more to stay the same....

Edited September 13, 2022 by martinmauger
sloppy spelling x2

[Baldyman 6,243]

Also,, if you listen to the engines after the first few heats,, they are running them as flat as a pancake to stop the rear wheel spinning so much,,, which in reality cancels out the need for the extra power,,, 

[THE DEAN MACHINE 4,771]

When I pitch the idea of restricting the revs to 10,000 or even 9000 all I get is the bike won’t work at that revs etc, I agree no it won’t but they are coming from the wrong perspective to solve the issue, it’s proven the sport works perfectly fine at lower revs, so the bikes need to change to adapt back to that level, you can’t expect it to happen overnight, it won’t, testing needs to be done, riders would adapt within a meeting or 2, they are versatile they can ride pretty much any bike with any power application, so no issue there, you may find riders reverting back to long stroke but I’m sure most would just adapt a short stroke, you can’t just limit the modern engine at 10,000 revs, it would be dangerous, the power band of the engine has to be lower, so as the riders and tuners aim for that optimum power rather than having it restricted before it hits that optimum power, the advantages of a much lower rev power are easier to ride engines, less engine wear, less tyre wear, less track wear, bikes ride better in wet, tracks don’t need to be as slick, speeds would be the same, team riding could again become easier than it is now, ultimately engine costs after the transition would be less, no brainier for me but I and others have been banging this drum for a while now and it’s completely ignored, the sport just plunders on, going from catastrophe to catastrophe like the current tyre one, yes Godfrey must take some responsibility for the anlas deal but as I said in an earlier post, we are currently doing a 60 second burnout 5 times a night and any tyre no matter who makes it will disintegrate  

[HGould 2,213]

Fascinating read re the Upright Weslakes and the modern lay down abberations.

I never cease to be amazed to see younger riders sat on the start line revving the balls off the engine and then going off the start line at half the revs as they can't ride the bikes properly.

I guess the transition from upright to lay down back in the day was far easier for the riders of that era as the modern bikes are far easier to ride than the older uprights that required throttle control.

Certainly I found racing far more entertaining in the late 70's to late 80's.

 

 

[mikebv 10,342]

My lad wants to take up Speedway so I have just bought four bikes, ready to race, off Bartosz Zmarzlik...

And all the same kevlars, boots, gloves and helmets that he wears...

So. Watch out Bartosz, now he is on an equal footing you have a rival for your title...

It is utter madness the way riders spend fortunes to try and match what other riders have, as all that happens is that everyone ends up with the same thing until the next thing comes along..

The result? 

No improvement in the racing...

Just loads more costs inherited...

Meaning loads more salary needed..

Meaning loads more admission money required..

And the net result?

The riders all still remain in the "natural" position they would have held anyway as they have all spent loads of money getting the same thing...

The crowds drop as the the price of entry goes up to a level they feel is not justifiable in paying...

And the promoters scratch their heads trying to work out why they are losing money...

A Dragons Den pitch as a business plan it certainly is not...

 

[Baldyman 6,243]

1 hour ago, THE DEAN MACHINE said:

When I pitch the idea of restricting the revs to 10,000 or even 9000 all I get is the bike won’t work at that revs etc, I agree no it won’t but they are coming from the wrong perspective to solve the issue, it’s proven the sport works perfectly fine at lower revs, so the bikes need to change to adapt back to that level, you can’t expect it to happen overnight, it won’t, testing needs to be done, riders would adapt within a meeting or 2, they are versatile they can ride pretty much any bike with any power application, so no issue there, you may find riders reverting back to long stroke but I’m sure most would just adapt a short stroke, you can’t just limit the modern engine at 10,000 revs, it would be dangerous, the power band of the engine has to be lower, so as the riders and tuners aim for that optimum power rather than having it restricted before it hits that optimum power, the advantages of a much lower rev power are easier to ride engines, less engine wear, less tyre wear, less track wear, bikes ride better in wet, tracks don’t need to be as slick, speeds would be the same, team riding could again become easier than it is now, ultimately engine costs after the transition would be less, no brainier for me but I and others have been banging this drum for a while now and it’s completely ignored, the sport just plunders on, going from catastrophe to catastrophe like the current tyre one, yes Godfrey must take some responsibility for the anlas deal but as I said in an earlier post, we are currently doing a 60 second burnout 5 times a night and any tyre no matter who makes it will disintegrate  

With a lower rev limiter fitted,, could they not just change the cam to suit?  Also,, how about a bigger or heavier fly wheel,, would that help to stop them suddenly taking off? 

Edited September 13, 2022 by Baldyman

[THE DEAN MACHINE 4,771]

11 minutes ago, Baldyman said:

With a lower rev limiter fitted,, could they not just change the cam to suit?  Also,, how about a bigger or heavier fly wheel,, would that help to stop them suddenly taking off? 

Yes heavier flywheels would help, you could put lower lift cams in to achieve less revs, there are many things that could be done, it’s simple to make an engine Rev less it’s making it work at less revs that is the key 

[THE DEAN MACHINE 4,771]

25 minutes ago, mikebv said:

My lad wants to take up Speedway so I have just bought four bikes, ready to race, off Bartosz Zmarzlik...

And all the same kevlars, boots, gloves and helmets that he wears...

So. Watch out Bartosz, now he is on an equal footing you have a rival for your title...

It is utter madness the way riders spend fortunes to try and match what other riders have, as all that happens is that everyone ends up with the same thing until the next thing comes along..

The result? 

No improvement in the racing...

Just loads more costs inherited...

Meaning loads more salary needed..

Meaning loads more admission money required..

And the net result?

The riders all still remain in the "natural" position they would have held anyway as they have all spent loads of money getting the same thing...

The crowds drop as the the price of entry goes up to a level they feel is not justifiable in paying...

And the promoters scratch their heads trying to work out why they are losing money...

A Dragons Den pitch as a business plan it certainly is not...

 

I have had absolute beginners who have never rode a bike buy a cheap bike off me and say things like I need to change the backend to a straight one cause all the top riders use them 

[Baldyman 6,243]

23 minutes ago, THE DEAN MACHINE said:

Yes heavier flywheels would help, you could put lower lift cams in to achieve less revs, there are many things that could be done, it’s simple to make an engine Rev less it’s making it work at less revs that is the key 

I'm sure going back to the lesser revving engines,, they just used to make more dramatic changes to the rear sprocket,, for example,, start on a 63 finish on a 56 to 58,   and I don't remember the riders poxing about changing this that and the other as much as they do now 

Edited September 13, 2022 by Baldyman

[wtf 621]

49 minutes ago, Baldyman said:

I'm sure going back to the lesser revving engines,, they just used to make more dramatic changes to the rear sprocket,, for example,, start on a 63 finish on a 56 to 58,   and I don't remember the riders poxing about changing this that and the other as much as they do now 

The bikes now work in such a narrow range that the "set up" they're all reaching for is making the sport a bit of a laughing stock. Lowering revs will dramatically increase the range in which an engine can produce more useable power and be much easier to maintain at a high standard during a meeting.

But there is a fine balance between regulation of performance, and ending up with drawing lots for 14 standard bikes, and we end up like that

[Pirates Of Poole 761]

Think the main thing for the BSPA to sort is next year's rules and who is actually running! stop worrying about a second GP, we need to get our domestic situation sorted. The premiership is very clearly going to need more clubs to step up next year to make it viable, as at present its not with only 6 teams, I'm sure Discovery want more.

Why not sort the rules by end of August? enabling overseas riders the choice over Sweden or UK next year? as their rules are all done and dusted for 2023. Seems we say the same things year and year with no changes. 

 

[uk_martin 1,606]

Just trying to get my head around the recent posts. In the context of the title of this thread, will tampering with the bike's specs cure BRITISH speedway of its "joke" status?

Is this meant to be a British cure to a British problem, which if implemented will result in British speedway being carried out on different spec bikes to the rest of the world? In which case, if British speedway bikes no longer conform to FIM regulations, the sport that we know in this country will need to be called something else because it won't be the sport recognised by the world governing body. 

And for those exceptional British talents who want to be World Speedway Champion, and who want to race in Poland, Sweden and possibly still in this country, not to mention on the GP circuit, how does that reduce their costs, that they will have one garage of bikes and spares for riding in the UK, with British weights and measurements, and another complete set up of bikes and spares for their use abroad? How does penalising our top talent, encourage young riders to be the best that they can be? How many more future Robert Lamberts will we see learning their craft in Germany, on bikes built to FIM standards, and then going on to ride in Poland and in the GP's INSTEAD of riding in the UK at least for a few years whilst they learn their trade?

On a similar vein, with the dour shortage of British riders to fill the team slots in this country, and with the reliance on foreign riders, how will needing to invest in a new setup for riding in the UK be an incentive to attract up and coming foreign riders into the sport in this country? Young Aussies, Americans, etc, faced with double the costs will probably cut to the chase, and go with the "World Spec" sport, as found on the continent, and won't bother with the UK in the future. There have already been one or two that have "broken with tradition" and gone straight to Poland and Germany without riding in the UK first. Will that be the "new normal" in the future?

So, going back to the original question, how will having a sport divorced from the rest of the world by virtue of differing technical specifications, with less foreign riders and less top-quality British riders taking part, solve the issue of British Speedway being a joke?

[Tinker 213]

This is not as daft as it sounds. To give the Premier League a shot in the arm and keep Discovery/Eurosport happy why don't the powers that be enforce a top league with teams of city status only.  

Belle Vue (Mcr), Glasgow, Edinburgh (if running), Oxford, Plymouth, Leicester, Wolverhampton, Sheffield and Birmingham. A league of city heavyweights and all has a nice ring to it!

The remaining teams from the Championship could form a league with the stand alone sides from the lower division. 

All rather tongue in cheek I know but the Premiership League (our top league after all) does need a massive shake up and city teams may resonate more with the press/sponsors etc.

[THE DEAN MACHINE 4,771]

2 hours ago, uk_martin said:

Just trying to get my head around the recent posts. In the context of the title of this thread, will tampering with the bike's specs cure BRITISH speedway of its "joke" status?

Is this meant to be a British cure to a British problem, which if implemented will result in British speedway being carried out on different spec bikes to the rest of the world? In which case, if British speedway bikes no longer conform to FIM regulations, the sport that we know in this country will need to be called something else because it won't be the sport recognised by the world governing body. 

And for those exceptional British talents who want to be World Speedway Champion, and who want to race in Poland, Sweden and possibly still in this country, not to mention on the GP circuit, how does that reduce their costs, that they will have one garage of bikes and spares for riding in the UK, with British weights and measurements, and another complete set up of bikes and spares for their use abroad? 

Firstly the change to engines isn’t going to solve speedway’s problems but they are problems that speedway has and need sorting,2nd  the engines the riders use in England are not the same as the engines used in Poland, so to have 2 sets of bikes already happens