sparks123 147 Posted October 1, 2023 13 hours ago, CB252 said: You can find a reason to invalidate most speedway world titles of you look hard enough. Laguta and Sayfutdinov had their chance to beat Bartosz over a full Ekstraliga season and failed spectacularly once again this year, just as they did last year. Last time I looked there was 0.083 between Bartosz and Emil (wouldn't say that is a spectacular fail) in the extraliga averages? What I would add is that Emil was above 14 GP riders in the averages. Think Bartosz won 3-2 in their head to heads in the regular season and I think it was 3-3 in the playoffs (possibly with an exclusion for Emil). 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norbold 7,110 Posted October 1, 2023 Kelvin Tatum is going for Leon Masden as a wildcard for next year! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chunky 6,092 Posted October 2, 2023 1 hour ago, norbold said: Kelvin Tatum is going for Leon Masden as a wildcard for next year! So, we can have Madsen AND Masden? 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chunky 6,092 Posted October 2, 2023 2 hours ago, sparks123 said: What I would add is that Emil was above 14 GP riders in the averages. And Eric Boocock was above everybody in the 1969 averages except for Briggs and Mauger. And that proves what, exactly? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Technik 491 Posted October 2, 2023 I can't honestly see Laguta or Sayfutinov being in the equation. They are Russians that have moved to Poland & taken Polish passports but the PZM has not used them as Poles within their international fixtures nor have they appeared in the National championship. My guess is that Poland will not nominate them for consideration. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gambo95 91 Posted October 2, 2023 8 hours ago, sparks123 said: Last time I looked there was 0.083 between Bartosz and Emil (wouldn't say that is a spectacular fail) in the extraliga averages? What I would add is that Emil was above 14 GP riders in the averages. Think Bartosz won 3-2 in their head to heads in the regular season and I think it was 3-3 in the playoffs (possibly with an exclusion for Emil). CB252 is correct about them failing spectacularly last year against Bartosz. I cannot see them even in the averages. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arnieg 3,643 Posted October 2, 2023 2 hours ago, Technik said: I can't honestly see Laguta or Sayfutinov being in the equation. They are Russians that have moved to Poland & taken Polish passports but the PZM has not used them as Poles within their international fixtures nor have they appeared in the National championship. My guess is that Poland will not nominate them for consideration. Schroedinger's Poles Polish enough to be riding in Ekstraliga as Polish citizens on Polish passports with Polish licences, but not Polish enough for FIM competition. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norbold 7,110 Posted October 2, 2023 7 hours ago, chunky said: So, we can have Madsen AND Masden? Oh dear...I'm as bad as Kelvin! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DazS 430 Posted October 2, 2023 8 hours ago, chunky said: And Eric Boocock was above everybody in the 1969 averages except for Briggs and Mauger. And that proves what, exactly? that eric had a better average than everybody apart from Mauger and Briggs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fatface 2,554 Posted October 2, 2023 (edited) 23 hours ago, CB252 said: It's not irrelevant as it's the only yardstick by which we can currently measure them. That and all barring one GP season. Erik didn't have Hans number at all. In all the finals Erik won, Hans picked up silver. Erik was clowning around halfway down the field in 86. And also failed to medal in 89. Hmmm. World Final head-to-head record was 8-3 to Erik, including two run-offs for the title. You can make a valid case for Nielsen having a better career record. But I think its pretty clear Erik was better when it came to crunch-time between the two. As for Zmarzlik's place in history, I think he's one of the greatest ever. There are no mugs in the GPs, as there were in many World Finals. There's no Petr Ondrasiks or Robert Slabons. I don't think there many - if any - World Finals where you could make a valid case that all the world's best were present. He's proved himself the best of the era and not just in what he has won, also the way he does it. He can win from the front, win from the back, on any type of track and in pressure situations. And you honestly can't say that of a lot of all-time greats. He's a tremendous rider. Edited October 2, 2023 by fatface 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chunky 6,092 Posted October 2, 2023 1 hour ago, fatface said: There are no mugs in the GPs, as there were in many World Finals. There's no Petr Ondrasiks or Robert Slabons. I don't think there many - if any - World Finals where you could make a valid case that all the world's best were present. And that's because it was never designed to qualify all the world's best. If it had been, you wouldn't have had the continental qualifiers. It was designed to get a variety of nations represented, regardless of how good the riders were. People today still don't get how flawed the old system was... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SPEEDY69 1,260 Posted October 2, 2023 16 minutes ago, chunky said: And that's because it was never designed to qualify all the world's best. If it had been, you wouldn't have had the continental qualifiers. It was designed to get a variety of nations represented, regardless of how good the riders were. People today still don't get how flawed the old system was... And this is also true of the GPs. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DazS 430 Posted October 2, 2023 the BLRC, used to have a better field than the world finals back in the day. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fatface 2,554 Posted October 2, 2023 (edited) 5 hours ago, chunky said: And that's because it was never designed to qualify all the world's best. If it had been, you wouldn't have had the continental qualifiers. It was designed to get a variety of nations represented, regardless of how good the riders were. People today still don't get how flawed the old system was... Maybe. I think in the late 60s/early 70s, it was just about fit for purpose. But by the time of mid 70s onwards, I don't think the Poles, Czechs and the rest were competitive. Jiri Stancl, solid as he was, is a NINE-TIME world finallist. Shawn Moran, Phil Crump, Kelly Moran, Malcolm Simmons all got to just three finals each. There were loads of years where some of the Continental WF qualifiers would have struggled to get through a British Semi Final. Edited October 2, 2023 by fatface 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fatface 2,554 Posted October 2, 2023 2 hours ago, fatface said: Hmmm. World Final head-to-head record was 8-3 to Erik, including two run-offs for the title. You can make a valid case for Nielsen having a better career record. But I think its pretty clear Erik was better when it came to crunch-time between the two. Also worth noting that Gundersen's World Final average is 11.55. Nielsen's is 11.26. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
