British Under-21 Final at Glasgow on Sunday 18/05/25 (2pm)

[szkocjasid]

I know semi finals & finals to finish meetings have gone on for decades now, but I can't understand why having an "exciting final" is preferred to having a "deserving winner"

1st Sam Hagon 15 (7)

2nd Joe Thompson 16 (6)

3rd Luke Harrison 16 (7)

Just doesn't sit right to me.

Edited 17 hours ago by szkocjasid

[foreverblue]

31 minutes ago, szkocjasid said:

I know semi finals & finals to finish meetings have gone on for decades now, but I can't understand why having an "exciting final" is preferred to having a "deserving winner"

1st Sam Hagon 15 (7)

2nd Joe Thompson 16 (6)

3rd Luke Harrison 16 (7)

Just doesn't sit right to me.

Sam was a deserving winner especially having had to battle from the back in the semi and the final, the format means you can have a bad ride and still win which is a fair way of doing it in my view.

[szkocjasid]

4 minutes ago, foreverblue said:

Sam was a deserving winner especially having had to battle from the back in the semi and the final, the format means you can have a bad ride and still win which is a fair way of doing it in my view.

I guess technically Sam is a deserving winner, as he won under the rules of the meeting.

Not quite sure I agree with your second point as a fair way to do it, everyone meeting once & top scorer wins sounds fair to me?

I don't understand the desire to give riders a second chance, or why heat 22 should be more important than heat 1, but I know not everyone will agree.

[szkocjasid]

Saw this on Ashton Boughen's FB

"Not the best of results today but I had to make do with what we had taken as my normal engines are in for service. 

We try again next weekend for the sgp2 qualifier back on my normal engine"

Seems an odd thing to say, why wouldn't you have your best / normal engines available for such an important meeting?

What would Boughen's sponsors think or meeting sponsor (if there was one) seeing a rider say "but I had to make do with what we had taken".

I realise he's only 17, but doesn't strike me as a professional approach.

[szkocjasid]

4 hours ago, TheWellBehavedWorrall said:

I don’t mean to be negative, but overall, I’m surprised by how poor the general standard is. Admittedly, I was on a lengthy hiatus from speedway, but I attended these meetings won by Scott Nicholls, Simon Stead with the likes of David Howe, Oliver Allen and Edward Kennett in amongst it. The standard was high, but today, I thought you could tell these were young boys; so much hesitancy and stiffness going round the bends.

He didn’t, so it’s irrelevant, but had Dan Thompson not crashed, he’d have won that at an absolute canter this afternoon. The field used to be filled with Dan Thompson’s.

I remember before that, in the mid nineties Paul Hurry, Ben Howe, Scott Nicholls & Savalas Clouting fighting over U21 gold, all top league riders - when the best in the world still competed in Britain.

While there are a few strong riders at U21 level, there's not the strength in depth, with NL reserves capable of qualifying now.

[arnieg]

40 minutes ago, szkocjasid said:

I remember before that, in the mid nineties Paul Hurry, Ben Howe, Scott Nicholls & Savalas Clouting fighting over U21 gold, all top league riders - when the best in the world still competed in Britain.

While there are a few strong riders at U21 level, there's not the strength in depth, with NL reserves capable of qualifying now.

1990 1-2-3 was Screen, Loram, Louis

[Sir Sidney]

7 hours ago, szkocjasid said:

I guess technically Sam is a deserving winner, as he won under the rules of the meeting.

Not quite sure I agree with your second point as a fair way to do it, everyone meeting once & top scorer wins sounds fair to me?

I don't understand the desire to give riders a second chance, or why heat 22 should be more important than heat 1, but I know not everyone will agree.

I agree.

 

The modern way of everything building to a final may create drama, but the best rider / team in a meeting or league does not necessarily win. 

[TheWellBehavedWorrall]

7 hours ago, szkocjasid said:

I remember before that, in the mid nineties Paul Hurry, Ben Howe, Scott Nicholls & Savalas Clouting fighting over U21 gold, all top league riders - when the best in the world still competed in Britain.

While there are a few strong riders at U21 level, there's not the strength in depth, with NL reserves capable of qualifying now.

Exactly.

I watched the meeting back again last night and yes, there were some decent races, but 50% of the field looked like maintaining control of their machines was a struggle. The standard is so poor.

I’ll go back to heat four. If Luke Killeen is in control of his bike, Dan Thompson’s probably waking up as British Under-21 champion this morning. Killeen didn’t though and Thompson’s evasive action of cutting back has rewarded him with a broken wrist.

Bitterly disappointing.

[foreverblue]

35 minutes ago, TheWellBehavedWorrall said:

Exactly.

I watched the meeting back again last night and yes, there were some decent races, but 50% of the field looked like maintaining control of their machines was a struggle. The standard is so poor.

I’ll go back to heat four. If Luke Killeen is in control of his bike, Dan Thompson’s probably waking up as British Under-21 champion this morning. Killeen didn’t though and Thompson’s evasive action of cutting back has rewarded him with a broken wrist.

Bitterly disappointing.

From what I have seen Luke Killeen is often not in control of his bike.  

[PersonalResponsibility]

7 hours ago, arnieg said:

1990 1-2-3 was Screen, Loram, Louis

Scott Smith won the very next British U21 final, though. I agree the standard isn't as high as it was, but 1990 is a specific example of a golden generation, there were still bang average winners around the same time. 

[IainB]

I caught up with this last night, didn't watch it live as I knew it'd be a marathon.

I'm so pleased to see Sam Hagon win this, I've given him a bit of stick on here in the past, maybe not him personally but my club for including him in this years line-up. I saw he'd put a bit of a score in on Saturday night at Berwick also, so has hopefully turned a bit of a corner and got his career back on track. He certainly did it the hard way, scraped into the LCQ, scraped into the final and then did it when it mattered... right or wrong, them's the rules.

I can't agree about the quality of riders on view compared to other years, like him or not the work that Vatcher does certainly looks to be working. What then happens to these riders once they leave his stewardship is another matter though as they then seem to get put through the sausage mincer, which for a sport with a major major shortage of home grown riders is beyond baffling.

I do think Ashton Boughen is trying to run before he's learnt to walk though and would probably benefit from more time in the NDL. I don't know but I get the impression that the focus for some of these young kids is to get out of British Speedway as quickly as possible on into Poland.

Luke Harrison was very impressive and surely deserves a shot at a RS spot somewhere.

A quick side note... 20 minutes to change tyres!!! Really?!? And that camera on bend 2 of the BSN coverage, cut to on almost every single lap of every race, to show a ridiculously close, close up of a rider... or no rider and just an empty track!!! Why?

[Fromafar]

12 minutes ago, foreverblue said:

From what I have seen Luke Killeen is often not in control of his bike.  

Killeen has never been the safest of riders but there have been a few over the years in the same boat.

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

12 minutes ago, PersonalResponsibility said:

Scott Smith won the very next British U21 final, though. I agree the standard isn't as high as it was, but 1990 is a specific example of a golden generation, there were still bang average winners around the same time. 

Scott Smith was averaging 4 with Cradley that year - probably more than anyone in this years field would've achieved given the relative standards

He also only managed to reach 2 full British Finals - the first in 1997 by which time he was averaging nearly 9 at Sheffield

I'd say those facts do more to prove the narrative of the current lack of strength than otherwise 

[IainB]

8 minutes ago, Fromafar said:

Killeen has never been the safest of riders but there have been a few over the years in the same boat.

Killeen is not a rider whom I've ever thought of as out of control or dangerous...

In the incident that saw DT get injured, I'm pretty sure that he got a nudge from Vinnie Foord that sent him into the side/back of Killeen and then he high sided. I'm pretty sure there was contact, despite the commentators saying there wasn't. Nothing intentional from Foord, just a hard first bend and all 4 back was the correct decision imo.

[IainB]

Looking at the last 10 years BU21 Finals and the number of riders no longer riding (to my knowledge)

Connor Bailey
Henry Atkins
Harry McGurk
Kyle Bickley
Alex Spooner
Sam Bebee
Archie Freeman
Jack Parkinson Blackburn
Jack Thomas
Joe Lawlor
Jamie Halder
Alex Spooner
Zach Wajtknecht
Nathan Greaves
Ryan Kinsley
Luke Harris
Luke Ruddick
Josh Bailey
Max Clegg
Taylor Hampshire
Ellis Perks
Josh Bates
Liam Carr
James Shanes
Oliver Greenwood
Stefan Nielsen
Ashley Morris
Marc Owen
Tom Stokes
Ryan Terry-Daley
Joe Jacobs
Tom Perry
Dan Greenwood
Jack Kingston
James Sarjeant

All of these riders interested enough in Speedway to have got the kit and given it a go and good enough to have appeared in a BU21 Final. That's 35 Speedway riders! 5 complete teams worth! But the sport chooses to fly in riders from abroad, if they can be persuaded, pay them top dollar and some of who let them down at the drop of a hat. Or have riders riding for more than one club in the UK... It's complete madness.

[SPEEDY69]

14 hours ago, Fromafar said:

Was really impressed with Cairns very stylish and sensible rider for 15.Luke Harrison is very underrated and doesn’t get the plaudits he deserves,he is also stylish and very controlled for a 17 year old.

Mike Lee was senior British Champion at 17. Just saying.

[foreverblue]

43 minutes ago, IainB said:

Killeen is not a rider whom I've ever thought of as out of control or dangerous...

In the incident that saw DT get injured, I'm pretty sure that he got a nudge from Vinnie Foord that sent him into the side/back of Killeen and then he high sided. I'm pretty sure there was contact, despite the commentators saying there wasn't. Nothing intentional from Foord, just a hard first bend and all 4 back was the correct decision imo.

Oxford v Poole this season looked out of control in most of his races but he wasnt at fault in the race DT got injured in my view.

[TheWellBehavedWorrall]

1 hour ago, IainB said:

Killeen is not a rider whom I've ever thought of as out of control or dangerous...

In the incident that saw DT get injured, I'm pretty sure that he got a nudge from Vinnie Foord that sent him into the side/back of Killeen and then he high sided. I'm pretty sure there was contact, despite the commentators saying there wasn't. Nothing intentional from Foord, just a hard first bend and all 4 back was the correct decision imo.

Thompson found himself in that position to be judged because he had to take evasive action from Killeen.

You can see from the picture below, Killeen’s veered three feet to his right from the start to the first bend. He was on one wheel with his head jerked back (which is why he’s looking up in this picture) and his left boot is in the air, mere inches from the first bend.

Thompson’s read that; if he doesn’t take evasive action by cutting back, Killeen’s hitting him. As a result, he’s stepped in front of Foord who can do nothing other than nudge him.

By the time Killeen’s deep in the first bend, he’s where those in gate three found themselves.

Killeen hasn’t done anything illegal, but a lack of control on his part has subsequently cost Thompson, Ipswich and Glasgow, big time.

Harris had to take similar evasive action against Polis at Ashfield last week. Fortunately, that didn’t put him in danger, but three seconds later, Polis and Howarth went down.

Edited 6 hours ago by TheWellBehavedWorrall

[Bagpuss]

55 minutes ago, IainB said:

Luke Harrison was very impressive and surely deserves a shot at a RS spot somewhere.

If he wants to do Prem I'd like to think Lynn have him lined up to replace Boughen if/when required.

30 minutes ago, IainB said:

Looking at the last 10 years BU21 Finals and the number of riders no longer riding (to my knowledge)

Connor Bailey
Henry Atkins
Harry McGurk
Kyle Bickley
Alex Spooner
Sam Bebee
Archie Freeman
Jack Parkinson Blackburn
Jack Thomas
Joe Lawlor
Jamie Halder
Alex Spooner
Zach Wajtknecht
Nathan Greaves
Ryan Kinsley
Luke Harris
Luke Ruddick
Josh Bailey
Max Clegg
Taylor Hampshire
Ellis Perks
Josh Bates
Liam Carr
James Shanes
Oliver Greenwood
Stefan Nielsen
Ashley Morris
Marc Owen
Tom Stokes
Ryan Terry-Daley
Joe Jacobs
Tom Perry
Dan Greenwood
Jack Kingston
James Sarjeant

All of these riders interested enough in Speedway to have got the kit and given it a go and good enough to have appeared in a BU21 Final. That's 35 Speedway riders! 5 complete teams worth! But the sport chooses to fly in riders from abroad, if they can be persuaded, pay them top dollar and some of who let them down at the drop of a hat. Or have riders riding for more than one club in the UK... It's complete madness.

I've long since thought we shouldn't be letting average foreigners ride here until all Brits who want a spot and are good enough have been employed.

 

[Fromafar]

1 hour ago, IainB said:

Killeen is not a rider whom I've ever thought of as out of control or dangerous...

In the incident that saw DT get injured, I'm pretty sure that he got a nudge from Vinnie Foord that sent him into the side/back of Killeen and then he high sided. I'm pretty sure there was contact, despite the commentators saying there wasn't. Nothing intentional from Foord, just a hard first bend and all 4 back was the correct decision imo.

Thought it wouldn’t be long before someone brought Vinnie into it.He was blameless.IMO