Who is number six?

[customhouseregular 1,651]

7 minutes ago, norbold said:

A very valid point of course, Fd. Personally, if I were to go by your criterion, I think I would have to nominate Ronnie Moore or Ken McKinlay as no. 1. 

As a Hammers supporter I have to agree with Ken McKinlay being the ultimate team rider. His partnership with Simmons produced many valuable 5-1’s for the team.

[norbold 7,109]

1 hour ago, customhouseregular said:

As a Hammers supporter I have to agree with Ken McKinlay being the ultimate team rider. His partnership with Simmons produced many valuable 5-1’s for the team.

And with Stan Stevens.

[E I Addio 15,845]

1 hour ago, customhouseregular said:

As a Hammers supporter I have to agree with Ken McKinlay being the ultimate team rider. His partnership with Simmons produced many valuable 5-1’s for the team.

I agree, but what is more I would say he was the ultimate tactician, with an amazing ability to out think an opponent.  My outstanding memories of him, on the rare occasions the missed the gate , was that he would sit just outside  someone’s tail until the last two bends then as the opponent drifted wide to cover his run in, Hurri- Ken would suddenly switch lines and come through on the inside. I thought he was brilliant, but I was young and impressionable and didn’t see much of the other top stars on a regular basis. From What little I’ve seen of Ronnie Moore, and considering he was past his best by the time I saw him I think would  have to have him in my top five or six. 

Its also been mentioned that the so called top 5 had to contend with each other but while we are speculating I think If Tony Rickardson had never been born we would be talking of Jason Crump in the top five. He really was ,to my mind , one of the true greats, more so than Greg Hancock.

 

Edited November 28, 2021 by E I Addio

[iris123 20,979]

Another thing i thought was interesting, and probably nothing more than that, and it is highlighted by watching Crump was.......those who could maintain their form and win two titles on the trot

Jack Young

Briggo

Fundin

Mauger the only rider to win 3 on the trot

Penhall

Gundersen

Nielsen

Rickardsson twice !!

Pedersen

and now Zmarzlik

and obviously i would put some extra significance on those who maintained that form in GP years

Edited November 28, 2021 by iris123

[chunky 6,091]

54 minutes ago, E I Addio said:

If Tony Rickardson had never been born we would be talking of Jason Crump in the top five. He really was ,to my mind , one of the true greats, more so than Greg Hancock.

I agree 100%. When you look at his remarkable consistency, he deserves to be included far more than riders like Hancock and Pedersen.

[norbold 7,109]

19 minutes ago, chunky said:

I agree 100%. When you look at his remarkable consistency, he deserves to be included far more than riders like Hancock and Pedersen.

I am also a huge fan of Crump's. We also shouldn't forget that he is the only rider apart from Fundin to gain a top three World Championship place in 10 consecutive seasons. Some achievement!
 

Also, my memory is a bit vague here, but wasn't there one season when he would have added another World title had he not run out of fuel (of all things!) in the vital race?

[customhouseregular 1,651]

2 hours ago, norbold said:

And with Stan Stevens.

Mr. Reliable.

[steve roberts 9,246]

4 hours ago, customhouseregular said:

As a Hammers supporter I have to agree with Ken McKinlay being the ultimate team rider. His partnership with Simmons produced many valuable 5-1’s for the team.

Ken was one of my early heroes at Oxford. I recall the occasion he let Garry Middleton thru' so that "Cass" could claim a full maximum!

[chunky 6,091]

4 hours ago, steve roberts said:

Ken was one of my early heroes at Oxford. I recall the occasion he let Garry Middleton thru' so that "Cass" could claim a full maximum!

He probably threatened Ken to make sure he got the lot!

[Midland Red 2,383]

For me, it has to be Ronnie Moore

[Grachan 7,362]

On 11/27/2021 at 4:17 PM, customhouseregular said:

There are not many with 4 or more WC titles, which narrows the field somewhat. If we open up the criteria to multiple titles, it gives us more scope.

I'm not saying that it's the be all and end all of it, but it certainly makes Hancock worth considering.

Personally, I agree more with the opinion that he wasn't able to win a title when Rickardsson, Pedersen and Crump were at their peak, so they were probably better riders than him. The only other rider to win a title in that era was Loram. Hancock's longevity does, however, make him worthy.

For me, Crump was better than Pedersen and Hancock. However, Hancock was winning World Titles at 46 years of age, which is about the same age that Jason Crump is now and Hancock was way above Jason at that age.

Or are we just looking at riders at their peak regardless of how short it was? If that's the case, Michael Lee is also worth considering.

 

[fatface 2,554]

My pick would be Bruce Penhall. He cleaned up everything there was to win and did it in style too. And if we were talking about being the complete package, I think he has a stronger case than a few of those in the top 5. Crump, Hancock, Olsen, Gundersen all legitimate claims too....but also a couple of questions over whether they were the best in their own eras. Short as it was, Penhall was unquestionably the best of his.

Disastrous it was at the time for the sport, but the timing of his retirement looks smarter and smarter as time goes on. Winning the title at the last ever final at Wembley, including winning two of the sport's most iconic races and defending it in his home city....well, it was never going to get any better than that for him was it? I think he had a few more titles in him, but somehow Norden, Bradford and Vojens just don't seem like the right stage for a rider who was the sport's last superstar. 

[iris123 20,979]

34 minutes ago, falcace said:

My pick would be Bruce Penhall. He cleaned up everything there was to win and did it in style too. And if we were talking about being the complete package, I think he has a stronger case than a few of those in the top 5. Crump, Hancock, Olsen, Gundersen all legitimate claims too....but also a couple of questions over whether they were the best in their own eras. Short as it was, Penhall was unquestionably the best of his.

Disastrous it was at the time for the sport, but the timing of his retirement looks smarter and smarter as time goes on. Winning the title at the last ever final at Wembley, including winning two of the sport's most iconic races and defending it in his home city....well, it was never going to get any better than that for him was it? I think he had a few more titles in him, but somehow Norden, Bradford and Vojens just don't seem like the right stage for a rider who was the sport's last superstar. 

I sort of agree with this to some extent

Always difficult to judge how things would have panned out if Bruce hadn't decided to retire. Just like if Ronnie Moore hadn't had that break from the sport at his peak. I would in both cases like to think they could have taken at least another title. Possibly more so even in Penhall's case. But Ronnie had proved he could beat the best of his rivals, whereas you could say a new generation came up when Penhall left the sport. But would they have been such a success if he had stuck around ?

[fatface 2,554]

28 minutes ago, iris123 said:

I sort of agree with this to some extent

Always difficult to judge how things would have panned out if Bruce hadn't decided to retire. Just like if Ronnie Moore hadn't had that break from the sport at his peak. I would in both cases like to think they could have taken at least another title. Possibly more so even in Penhall's case. But Ronnie had proved he could beat the best of his rivals, whereas you could say a new generation came up when Penhall left the sport. But would they have been such a success if he had stuck around ?

It can be overlooked, but I think its the race where Penhall beats Olsen at Wembley and he gives Nielsen really short shrift on the first turn. And if he hadn't, Olsen could have been gone. It's the sort of move that really lets someone know they are in a World Final. Penhall was quick to learn these lessons...he got similar treatment from Lee the year before. Nielsen took longer to really get to grips with this type of riding in World Finals. But when he did, he started winning.

[False dawn 2,298]

On 11/28/2021 at 3:04 PM, E I Addio said:

Its also been mentioned that the so called top 5 had to contend with each other but while we are speculating I think If Tony Rickardson had never been born we would be talking of Jason Crump in the top five. He really was ,to my mind , one of the true greats, more so than Greg Hancock.

This is a great discussion. Riders individual achievements, British Finals, World Championships and so on, are known by many and have been written about endlessly. But team players are really only lauded by their team's supporters. To take up your point with regard to Jason Crump, from the outside he fell into the "I've scored a maximum but the team lost" category. I don't think I've seen a rider consistently finish so far ahead of the field. But in this context, Greg was a quality individual performer but for Bees fans we remember the H&H days with great fondness.