stratton

Witcher another point you did not mention and maybe others will often some of the stronger riders did not always ride at no 1 so the old format was not always a cakewalk.Collins,Crump,Sjosten,( ect) rode at three or five so the opposing no 1 did not have an easy time.The heat 8 was often the cream for the No1 and he usually won his tactical.But my main point which i have tried to point out to you,teams then because most had star no1s that's what made speedway for me that's why i am passionate about this subject.Often you might only see a visiting no1 once a year unless you see them maybe in a individual meeting the teams 16/18 in a league.That is what i remember going early on a Saturday to usually see a star no 1 everyweek.I don't now go on Thursday now believing that not since Leigh went anyway so my memory might be playing tricks but whatever i enjoyed the times.

I understand the point about averages i get that, but as a example say at Ipswich lLouis/Sanders/Davey ok take 1.5 off all there averages Louis 9.00. Sanders 8.50 Davey 7.50 and i am being generous with 1.5 deductions.And who is to say they would not of coped with the changes? but my main point is eaces1 those three riders i named would still be very good riders indeed do you understand that point.?Say Mauger's 11.74 was down to 10.30 and that with his gating prowess is a doubt he would still be a great do you see my point now?Maybe if you took 1.5 off all averages my opinion of these riders in that list does not change at all because of a lower average.

I found in a old 1985 Halifax v King,s Lynn programme, in which Michael Lee did not ride his career stats at the shay.Eight meeting's his lowest score 2 points his highest score 17 points for an overall career average of 6.91.Anyone who were fans of Lee has to get the Carter DVD,awesome he rode the shay like he rode when he won the long track final.How he never won at Norden god knows but thing's were set up for Egon.Also on this DVD Carter's demolition of Nielsen 2.0 is breathtaking to.

I think you have had to much drink my friend,Cook comparable to Louis (ect) i am glad i don't grasp what you are trying to get me to agree to.Laughable really ask the old timers on here if a Cook ( forget your gates stats) is comparable to a LOUIS.Others on here will no better than me about the Tiger, i was lucky to see him ride about four times a year but at certain times in his career he was good anough to be a world champion ER summed it up perfectly for me. Alot of good riders Witcher ie) an example John Cook did not get a assessed 6.00 average in his first season it was hard.Examples debut season in the BL.J.Cook,4.17. Ermolenko, 6.71(full season 4 matches the year before) S.Moran 6.47 Doncaster 6.07. Tatum 6.19. jJonsson 6.52. J.Andersson 4.56 why didn't these rack up great figures because they had to learn there craft in a tough league with different challenges at different tracks.

Those examples you have given to me ER says it all, Witcher maybe should have a rethink.Only Zagar for me out of those riders is an in/out no1 Andersen even in his pomp and in a watered down product was borderline.Those riders say it all for me then add Kylmakorki,Watt,Harris,Bjerre, what a difference in quality.

None of those reserve choices that UK Martin has suggested are good anough,Lawson forget his age would get the nod over those four all night long was John Louis at 28/29 to old to ride for England.? I agree totally no help for the young uns,no long term vision year after year just plodding along.

Bloody hell a hell of a placement, some tribute eh some great riders then bits i have seen I see he wore a white scarf and the ladies loved him but ( ie) he could race so exciting to watch.

Just the man Norbold,have been getting a collection together of Arthur Forrest mostly Halifax at the moment i know he reached 5 World finals.And in his first year in div 3 he scored 19 maximums four paid how good was he Norbold.?

Alot of those riders around now ER some riding at no 1 are they as the same ilk as Briggs,Mauger,E.Boocock,N.Boocock,Mauger,Olsen,Betts,Moore,McMillan,B.Jansson,T.Jansson,Michanek,Ashby,Simmons,Crump,Wilson,Jessup,Louis,Boulger,Persson,Lofquist,Eide,Sanders,Valentine.I don't need facts and figures those named and i have missed a few were GENIUNE no 1s and they would of been in any era.Today i am not so sure there are that many GENIUNE in out no 1s in the EL maybe i am wrong again and will be shot down just my opinion nothing more nothing less. That is where it is a shame, as you put your case certainly to me as a superior one.Thats why i can't debate with you,because you have to be the winner at all costs and has been the trend you carry through most of your posts.My recollection of people who were clearly getting the better of you in whatever debate, mostly just gave up and didnt bother posting again on that topic.I am not bothered if i am wrong no matter if i can learn a bit along the way i am happy.

Carter averaged nearly 11 but it was easier then wasn't it ! no i am only joking!.Briggs,Mauger,Olsen,Collins with Mort,Carter,Gundersen,in the next lot.I often thought what a no1 Carter could of been at Hyde Rd he loved the place.Nielsen took a number of years to master the place he often rode the line in his earlier years.At league level also E.Boocock,Crump,Ashby,Airey should be mentioned they had decent records at Hyde rd.

Wow we got there in the end,forget your mumbo/ jumbo the 70s had more top class riders in it thats what i thought thanks WItcher.

Do you think the second strings are better now i personally dont.

No answer again, i will ask you again was the 70s stronger than it is now? iF you say Yes. It does not mean you are showing a weakness far from it.

What do you think ? also you have to remember the league was bigger then more variation in tracks different challenges alot more than now a visit to Exeter on a Monday then Coventry on a Wednesday a totally different challenge.

I am not digging a hole,no disrespect to you you did not see alot of these riders you are guessing is this right?you started watching in probably the most poorest version of the BL even then it was not the BL a very average version indeed in a deep transition.Your points are valid ,but please don't quote FACT again total dross you give your point of view i will give mine.As in most discussions you have to be the winner fair play but please don't quote fact again give your opinion i will give mine none of us have to be the WINNER Witcher remember that. A simple answer even for you no SPIN Witcher was the 70s a stronger era than now? Not that you were around then a YES OR a NO? whatever your answer i will respect it.

Good point some great riders around today who are worth 20 pound a week to watch.I miss the real interesting league meeting's the local derbies v Reading,Bristol,Oxford,Newport, and my trips to the capital Hackney was a big favourite.It really set your weekend up going there on a Friday and Wimbledon what a buzz that place had. I am glad i have watched speedway since the late 60s wouldn't change a thing there always is hope that the sport can push on again a tough ask though in the times we live in. A great post most i agree with,but i do think years ago second string's did beat the top boys and more regularly in my view.My favourite rider Malc Holloway a prime example a second string 6.88 his best BL. Average ever he beat all the top riders at least once in his career.At times he was an inigma once he scored 0 at Bradford i think then a day or so later he got a paid max 13/2 beating Carter three times.I do feel certain riders then did have there every dog has there day Graham Plant another example a terrific rider on his day could beat anyone. Yes your point about Lawson is a valid one,also did Auty once beat Holder at Poole?

Big shout Gavan, that knee injury really cost him has a chance can see him only getting on the rostrum at best though should be an interesting series.

My take is overall say in the 70s,there were more top class riders than there are now.As Witcher points out maybe the also rans are on the level but the top boys for me there was more strength in depth.Each team had a decent no 1,heat 1 were generally special ones and most teams had a decent 1/5 ( ie) ex ) belle Vue )Mauger,Sjosten,Collins, Wilkinson, cradley) Penhall,Gundersen,Grahame,Collins,.There were weak teams of course but even some of those were decent at home often with a home advantage.Maybe i am looking through my rosé tinted glasses,but i don't need stats,formats,Averages to tell me week on week i see a stronger product than it is now.My opinion only,no more than that my memory tells me it was a stronger time then the old BL was the envy of the world how thing's have changed.

Sad see Vic for Weymouth and Hackney and for Hackney he was improving everyone gives Vic a great word a nice man sadly missed. If you watched those clubs in London three days a week god was hard to travel much away anyway City .Wouldnt it be great to have three great clubs in the capital Wimbledon/Hackney i loved going to especially don't be late Friday at eight i loved Hackney i see Martin Ashby win the superama there.

ability nothing else.

love em i love the track at blunsdon when it is prepared a special track for me.Sir Briggo,Ashby,Crump, the great Leigh i have been lucky in my lifetime to see them i have done my research did Craven beat Fundin more times? what do you think custom a random guess.?

Totally right Custom sorry, three only getting old quickly i think he won four New Zealand longtrack titles? Just shows you Briggo was decent at longtrack but never really won top honours at this sprere dunno why. 95/96 please forget stats be real that period was a pretty aveage period,saying that in a arguement/discussion you are the best you are right on the stats take though Witcher i can't dispute that.!

95/96 was to put it bluntly the poorest example ever not to worry.Put it simply for you Witcher, Mauger,Briggs,Boocock bros) Airey,Ashby, KIlby, Wilson,Moore,Betts,Louis,Lee,Sanders,PC, Morton, Autrey,Penhall, Moran broths) Simmons, Crump,and i have missed a few please tell me that was a pretty good list forget stats were they good or not.

Big shout Regular, and you are right again Ivan's record is immense also which is forgotten he won six longtrack titles as well and lost a title to Jerzy Briggo,Mirac/ Ivan all heroes in my book.