barrybishop 896 Posted October 23, 2021 Going back to the NDL and its rider developmentsuccess or failure - for me there needs to be a clear distinction of what success means. For example, there are riders who will always make it regardless (Gilks, Brennan, Edwards, Bewley, Lambert, Pallin), those that enter the NL on 3.00 and leave on 9 plus.. they would have made it regardless of the league structures or if there was only second halves after main meetings and amateur meetings available to them. For me success or failure of the NDL is whether those riders who perhaps have to work a bit harder (I dont know a different phrase for this and I am not suggesting that those who will make it regardless have not or do not work extremely hard for their success and indeed I am sure it always contributes to it), for example here Danny Ayres, Ben Morley, Alfie Bowtell, where participating in the National league really made a huge difference to them and was probably the only way the made it to higher leagues. Can we say in 2021 any middle order riders at the start of the league are now able to make the step up? This is where the NDL should really come in to its own for rider development in my view, for riders like Spooner, Verge, Coles to really give them the step up they need to Championship but also a "challenging" cushion in the NDL for confidence and experience. And the only other option is to have a properly MDL/NJL formated and enforced second teams to run, without fail, after every league meeting by every UK club. 5 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikebv 10,276 Posted October 23, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, barrybishop said: Going back to the NDL and its rider developmentsuccess or failure - for me there needs to be a clear distinction of what success means. For example, there are riders who will always make it regardless (Gilks, Brennan, Edwards, Bewley, Lambert, Pallin), those that enter the NL on 3.00 and leave on 9 plus.. they would have made it regardless of the league structures or if there was only second halves after main meetings and amateur meetings available to them. For me success or failure of the NDL is whether those riders who perhaps have to work a bit harder (I dont know a different phrase for this and I am not suggesting that those who will make it regardless have not or do not work extremely hard for their success and indeed I am sure it always contributes to it), for example here Danny Ayres, Ben Morley, Alfie Bowtell, where participating in the National league really made a huge difference to them and was probably the only way the made it to higher leagues. Can we say in 2021 any middle order riders at the start of the league are now able to make the step up? This is where the NDL should really come in to its own for rider development in my view, for riders like Spooner, Verge, Coles to really give them the step up they need to Championship but also a "challenging" cushion in the NDL for confidence and experience. And the only other option is to have a properly MDL/NJL formated and enforced second teams to run, without fail, after every league meeting by every UK club. And a next level that doesn't have the majority of riders that ride as heat leaders in the top tier... The level currently from step three to step two is too big, as basically in reality it's not far off going from step three to step one in one move... Having one or two experienced old heads from the tier above in most teams brought the riders on and gave them an idea of what the next level looked like... Now you can go from learning your craft, gradually improve and move up, and be facing riders who just represented Team Great Britain in a test match v Poland... Edited October 23, 2021 by mikebv 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iainb 5,015 Posted October 24, 2021 22 hours ago, barrybishop said: Going back to the NDL and its rider developmentsuccess or failure - for me there needs to be a clear distinction of what success means. For example, there are riders who will always make it regardless (Gilks, Brennan, Edwards, Bewley, Lambert, Pallin), those that enter the NL on 3.00 and leave on 9 plus.. they would have made it regardless of the league structures or if there was only second halves after main meetings and amateur meetings available to them. For me success or failure of the NDL is whether those riders who perhaps have to work a bit harder (I dont know a different phrase for this and I am not suggesting that those who will make it regardless have not or do not work extremely hard for their success and indeed I am sure it always contributes to it), for example here Danny Ayres, Ben Morley, Alfie Bowtell, where participating in the National league really made a huge difference to them and was probably the only way the made it to higher leagues. Can we say in 2021 any middle order riders at the start of the league are now able to make the step up? This is where the NDL should really come in to its own for rider development in my view, for riders like Spooner, Verge, Coles to really give them the step up they need to Championship but also a "challenging" cushion in the NDL for confidence and experience. And the only other option is to have a properly MDL/NJL formated and enforced second teams to run, without fail, after every league meeting by every UK club. I would describe success as those riders that go on from the NDL to make a career out of Speedway. It really depends on what the NDL is supposed to be "developing" is it developing international class riders capable of becoming World Champion, it's never going to do that on a consistent basis or is it developing riders to fill league positions in the upper leagues to sustain the sport in this country? For me it should be the latter and if you look at the position the upper leagues are in this season you'd have to say it has failed. We had "the perfect storm" this year of Covid travel restrictions and Polish league rider limitations and when British speedway should have been pulling on the resources of the riders that have been "developed" over the last 10 years there was very little there, hence absolutely ludicrous levels of doubling up/down. In another thread I took a look at the number of riders that were riding in the NDL 10 yeas ago that went on to have what you'd call a career in the sport and the number was alarmingly small, something like 10%, so the numbers would say that the NDL is a failure despite the "headliners" of Woffy, Lambert, Bewley & Brennan etc. That doesn't mean to say it's a bad league, I don't know, I've never seen an NDL match and don't really take too much interest in it. The problem really lies with the routes or progression into the upper leagues where the promoters are still more likely to choose a foreign rider or a double up/downer than go with an NDLer as the rules allow it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fortythirtyeight 840 Posted October 24, 2021 On 10/23/2021 at 11:13 AM, barrybishop said: Going back to the NDL and its rider developmentsuccess or failure - for me there needs to be a clear distinction of what success means. For example, there are riders who will always make it regardless (Gilks, Brennan, Edwards, Bewley, Lambert, Pallin), those that enter the NL on 3.00 and leave on 9 plus.. they would have made it regardless of the league structures or if there was only second halves after main meetings and amateur meetings available to them. For me success or failure of the NDL is whether those riders who perhaps have to work a bit harder (I dont know a different phrase for this and I am not suggesting that those who will make it regardless have not or do not work extremely hard for their success and indeed I am sure it always contributes to it), for example here Danny Ayres, Ben Morley, Alfie Bowtell, where participating in the National league really made a huge difference to them and was probably the only way the made it to higher leagues. Can we say in 2021 any middle order riders at the start of the league are now able to make the step up? This is where the NDL should really come in to its own for rider development in my view, for riders like Spooner, Verge, Coles to really give them the step up they need to Championship but also a "challenging" cushion in the NDL for confidence and experience. And the only other option is to have a properly MDL/NJL formated and enforced second teams to run, without fail, after every league meeting by every UK club. Interesting points but if your suggestion that every club should run ‘ second teams ‘ next year just where are the clubs to find these riders ? British Youth Championship field isn’t the size of pre 2019 levels especially youth 500 level ( less than 6 riders ) Amateur meeting entries are down at the few tracks that run them ( 3 or 4 tops?) especially in the youth and 125 categories on pre COVID years, half of the entrees aren’t upto safe ‘ racing ‘ standards ( not decrying them but some are old timers just having a ride , others are complete novices who can’t slide around a complete corner ). There simply isn’t enough competent new riders to make up such teams and there’s been no new flow of kids getting on speedway bikes in the last two years for obvious reasons. whilst a structured third tier is essential, let’s be realistic about how many new riders are taking up the sport….very, very few. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
barrybishop 896 Posted October 25, 2021 19 hours ago, Fortythirtyeight said: Interesting points but if your suggestion that every club should run ‘ second teams ‘ next year just where are the clubs to find these riders ? British Youth Championship field isn’t the size of pre 2019 levels especially youth 500 level ( less than 6 riders ) Amateur meeting entries are down at the few tracks that run them ( 3 or 4 tops?) especially in the youth and 125 categories on pre COVID years, half of the entrees aren’t upto safe ‘ racing ‘ standards ( not decrying them but some are old timers just having a ride , others are complete novices who can’t slide around a complete corner ). There simply isn’t enough competent new riders to make up such teams and there’s been no new flow of kids getting on speedway bikes in the last two years for obvious reasons. whilst a structured third tier is essential, let’s be realistic about how many new riders are taking up the sport….very, very few. Just to correct you there, I dont suggest that every team should have second teams. But it's an option that could be further evaluated.. My personal thoughts is that I know that it wouldn't work partly due to rider numbers but also, like always (and 2nd halve were supposed to happen this year too) second team racing isnt valued by many promoters sadly leaving those who can see its potential out on a limb with next to no support. 22 hours ago, iainb said: I would describe success as those riders that go on from the NDL to make a career out of Speedway. It really depends on what the NDL is supposed to be "developing" is it developing international class riders capable of becoming World Champion, it's never going to do that on a consistent basis or is it developing riders to fill league positions in the upper leagues to sustain the sport in this country? For me it should be the latter and if you look at the position the upper leagues are in this season you'd have to say it has failed. We had "the perfect storm" this year of Covid travel restrictions and Polish league rider limitations and when British speedway should have been pulling on the resources of the riders that have been "developed" over the last 10 years there was very little there, hence absolutely ludicrous levels of doubling up/down. In another thread I took a look at the number of riders that were riding in the NDL 10 yeas ago that went on to have what you'd call a career in the sport and the number was alarmingly small, something like 10%, so the numbers would say that the NDL is a failure despite the "headliners" of Woffy, Lambert, Bewley & Brennan etc. That doesn't mean to say it's a bad league, I don't know, I've never seen an NDL match and don't really take too much interest in it. The problem really lies with the routes or progression into the upper leagues where the promoters are still more likely to choose a foreign rider or a double up/downer than go with an NDLer as the rules allow it. I think @arnieg said earlier that every british rider in the top two leagues, except Scott Nicholls had gone through the third tier of the sport. I guess if what you say is correct that only 10% of NDL riders make a carrer out of the sport then our higher leagues need to consider the options that are opened for UK rider, vice international riders for our UK based teams. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cityrebel 2,960 Posted October 25, 2021 21 minutes ago, barrybishop said: Just to correct you there, I dont suggest that every team should have second teams. But it's an option that could be further evaluated.. My personal thoughts is that I know that it wouldn't work partly due to rider numbers but also, like always (and 2nd halve were supposed to happen this year too) second team racing isnt valued by many promoters sadly leaving those who can see its potential out on a limb with next to no support. I think @arnieg said earlier that every british rider in the top two leagues, except Scott Nicholls had gone through the third tier of the sport. I guess if what you say is correct that only 10% of NDL riders make a carrer out of the sport then our higher leagues need to consider the options that are opened for UK rider, vice international riders for our UK based teams. Did you enjoy your afternoon at Lydd yesterday Barry. It was a bit chilly, but a good day out. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
barrybishop 896 Posted October 25, 2021 10 minutes ago, cityrebel said: Did you enjoy your afternoon at Lydd yesterday Barry. It was a bit chilly, but a good day out. yes really enjoyed it. I always learn things when I visit tracks across the country and having ridden a Lydd over the years it was great to observe and learn. All in all, a great day out for me and a pleasure to watch many of the riders that have helped us on the Island this year on their local track. Malc and his team do a great job down there. I particularly liked his bowser set up and is something that I am sure we could do on the island as well to help us with the track in the build up to race day. What I didnt like was the M25 on the way back... took forever, but was well worth the trip. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iainb 5,015 Posted October 25, 2021 1 hour ago, barrybishop said: I think @arnieg said earlier that every british rider in the top two leagues, except Scott Nicholls had gone through the third tier of the sport. I guess if what you say is correct that only 10% of NDL riders make a carrer out of the sport then our higher leagues need to consider the options that are opened for UK rider, vice international riders for our UK based teams. It's not very scientific but here are the British riders used in the PL & CL in 2021: 1 Adam Ellis 2 Anders Rowe 3 Ben Barker 4 Charles Wright 5 Chris Harris 6 Connor Mountain 7 Craig Cook 8 Daniel Bewley 9 Danny King 10 Danyon Hume 11 Drew Kemp 12 Jordan Palin 13 Kyle Howarth 14 Leon Flint 15 Lewis Bridger R 16 Lewis Kerr 17 Paul Starke 18 Richard Lawson 19 Richie Worrall 20 Stefan Nielsen 21 Steve Worrall 22 Tom Brennan 1 Adam Roynon 2 Alfie Bowtell 3 Archie Freeman 4 Ashley Morris 5 Ben Morley 6 Dan Gilkes 7 Dan Thompson 8 Edward Kennett 9 Henry Atkins 10 Jack Parkinson-Blackburn 11 Jack Smith 12 Jack Thomas 13 Jake Knight 14 Jake Mulford 15 James Sarjeant 16 James Shanes 17 James Wright 18 Jason Edwards 19 Joe Alcock 20 Joe Lawlor 21 Joe Thompson 22 Jordan Jenkins 23 Josh Auty 24 Josh Bates R 25 Kyle Bickley 26 Kyle Newman 27 Luke Crang 28 Luke Ruddick 29 Max Clegg 30 Nathan Ablitt 31 Nathan Greaves R 32 Paul Hurry R 33 Ryan Kinsley 34 Simon Lambert 35 Tom Bacon R 36 William Lawson R At least 6 of these riders have "retired". There's 42 team places available in the PL and 84 team places available in the CL. You could probably thin down the CL list as not all of these riders will have done anywhere near a full season. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tsunami 10,219 Posted October 28, 2021 On 10/25/2021 at 9:29 AM, iainb said: It's not very scientific but here are the British riders used in the PL & CL in 2021: 1 Adam Ellis 2 Anders Rowe 3 Ben Barker 4 Charles Wright 5 Chris Harris 6 Connor Mountain 7 Craig Cook 8 Daniel Bewley 9 Danny King 10 Danyon Hume 11 Drew Kemp 12 Jordan Palin 13 Kyle Howarth 14 Leon Flint 15 Lewis Bridger R 16 Lewis Kerr 17 Paul Starke 18 Richard Lawson 19 Richie Worrall 20 Stefan Nielsen 21 Steve Worrall 22 Tom Brennan 1 Adam Roynon 2 Alfie Bowtell 3 Archie Freeman 4 Ashley Morris 5 Ben Morley 6 Dan Gilkes 7 Dan Thompson 8 Edward Kennett 9 Henry Atkins 10 Jack Parkinson-Blackburn 11 Jack Smith 12 Jack Thomas 13 Jake Knight 14 Jake Mulford 15 James Sarjeant 16 James Shanes 17 James Wright 18 Jason Edwards 19 Joe Alcock 20 Joe Lawlor 21 Joe Thompson 22 Jordan Jenkins 23 Josh Auty 24 Josh Bates R 25 Kyle Bickley 26 Kyle Newman 27 Luke Crang 28 Luke Ruddick 29 Max Clegg 30 Nathan Ablitt 31 Nathan Greaves R 32 Paul Hurry R 33 Ryan Kinsley 34 Simon Lambert 35 Tom Bacon R 36 William Lawson R At least 6 of these riders have "retired". There's 42 team places available in the PL and 84 team places available in the CL. You could probably thin down the CL list as not all of these riders will have done anywhere near a full season. I think that :- Edward Kennett, Joe Alcock, Luke Ruddick and possibly Joe Lawlor could also be added to the list of retired riders. Will Lawson was dropped, but still rides in the Armadale Devils team. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teaboy279 1,038 Posted October 29, 2021 On 10/28/2021 at 1:22 PM, Tsunami said: I think that :- Edward Kennett, Joe Alcock, Luke Ruddick and possibly Joe Lawlor could also be added to the list of retired riders. Will Lawson was dropped, but still rides in the Armadale Devils team. Not sure Kennett has packed up, think he just got tired of riding for free this year. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gazzac 1,015 Posted October 29, 2021 (edited) 15 minutes ago, teaboy279 said: Not sure Kennett has packed up, think he just got tired of riding for free this year. To be honest he didn't help the cause much at home, he was pretty poor and looked like he should retire really, certainly wasn't a No1, and was far off the best at 3 or 4 when he dropped down. Edited October 29, 2021 by gazzac Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
25yearfan 476 Posted October 30, 2021 (edited) I've said all this before but it is still very relevant. The Louis/Godfrey vision of the 3rd Division is a novice League full of wobblers, no experienced riders and no standalone tracks which is so far from it where it needs to be in reality. Also forget about the pairs half hearted and aborted "British Junior" League. In 2021 the gap between the 3rd Division and the 2nd Division was way too big which is a major stumbling block to riders trying to make their way up the ladder unless as Barry Bishop stated they are exceptional talents that would have made it whatever system was in place. See this is where Chris Louis (like his father before him) doesn't "get it" cause he was an exceptional rider who became an 8 point 2nd tier rider after only one season. What British speedway has lacked since the 90's and it was in decline then was numerous British 1st tier and 2nd tier league journeymen, guys who wern't ever going to be World Champions but were regular, loyal servants to teams and being home grown local people took more interest in going to their nearest track. I saw this first hand from first watching at the Firs Stadium Norwich then the 1970's halcyon days at Ipswich, King's Lynn and Mildenhall. Locally based competitors is major reason why stock car racing is more popular in East Anglia than what speedway is. The 3rd Division has over its various guises since its 1994 formation been a less choppy water for new tracks to test the water, former tracks to reopen and tracks struggling in higher Leagues to run at a financially viable and competitive level. This is what disappoints me about Rob Godfreys stance on the 3rd tier cause he only reopened Scunthorpe (an area that struggled to run viable speedway in the 70's and 80's )in the 00's when it offered the beforementioned values. The likes of Birmingham and Eastbourne only kept going a few years ago because the 3rd tier was in place and offered a viable set up. Mildenhall I doubt would have ever reopened to speedway had the 3rd Division not been around. At this moment in time I suspect more than half the current teams running in the Championship struggle to be viable and would be better suited to racing at a cheaper amateur level. The 3rd tier doesn't need to be turned into a complete novice League because you already had successful junior Leagues below it in the well run Midland and Northern Junior Leagues to cater for novice riders. Experienced 3rd tier journeymen riders who won't ever make the regular step up to higher League like Luke Priest was in the past and Connor Coles is shouldn't be blocked from riding in the League if they wish to race cause they will provide better learning opportunities for newcomers racing against them than just racing against fellow novice riders and can provide good racing. Obviously there should be limits on the number of "old hands" in 3rd tier teams but wiping them out completely would be counter productive. What needs to happen is the top 2 Leagues merge into a bigger top flight at a level slightly better than the current Championship while those 2nd tier clubs that can't make it pay to drop down into a new 2nd tier that is at a level inbetween the current Championship and National League. Then 2 Junior Leagues below this level called the Northern League and the Southern League be formed organised in a similar way to what the well run Midland and Northern Leagues were. Edited October 30, 2021 by 25yearfan 7 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arnieg 3,643 Posted October 30, 2021 Well it looks like it will be incomplete as Kent v Armadale is off with no plans for rearrangement. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scotchopper 312 Posted October 31, 2021 From watching the Dale Devils this season the NDL is a significant steup from what the NJL was before, no idea about the MJL as never seen any. I think it was really starting to benefit the young lads and it is a far different scenario being the main event starting at 7.30 rather than an afterthought in the 2nd half. Unfortunately the amount of time between meetings this season meant a lot of momentum was lost. 9 matches over 7 months is difficult although it would also be a challenge for tracks with 2 teams to do much more. Kent being the extreme example what would have happened if they had been more successfull in the cup or got to the play offs in the Championship. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cityrebel 2,960 Posted October 31, 2021 11 hours ago, arnieg said: Well it looks like it will be incomplete as Kent v Armadale is off with no plans for rearrangement. It was always a gamble to arrange this fixture for the 31st. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites