geoff100 1,426 Posted March 11, 2019 13 minutes ago, WalterPlinge said: Probably your silliest quote so far. Lots where that came from ! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Midland Red 2,383 Posted March 11, 2019 5 hours ago, teaboy279 said: But records will always so that he is, he is the only 3 time world champion. That's a fact. Any other form of measurement is pure opinion. But the records do not show the standard of the opposition So it's never a level playing field when comparing riders from different eras Woffinden, most successful? Probably Best of all time? Possibly but not definitely 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted March 11, 2019 20 minutes ago, Midland Red said: But the records do not show the standard of the opposition So it's never a level playing field when comparing riders from different eras Woffinden, most successful? Probably Best of all time? Possibly but not definitely You're correct. The GP fields are a lot tougher. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Midland Red 2,383 Posted March 11, 2019 8 hours ago, BWitcher said: You're correct. The GP fields are a lot tougher. A lot tougher than what? One just doesn't know How can anyone say a GP field in 2018 was tougher than the opposition the Farndons, Parkers, Prices, Cravens, etc had to face in their days? One just doesn't know - one can surmise, make all kinds of assertions, but they cannot be proven Successful in his era, yes - best of all time, possible, but nothing more Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
00000 1,279 Posted March 11, 2019 1 hour ago, Midland Red said: A lot tougher than what? One just doesn't know How can anyone say a GP field in 2018 was tougher than the opposition the Farndons, Parkers, Prices, Cravens, etc had to face in their days? One just doesn't know - one can surmise, make all kinds of assertions, but they cannot be proven Successful in his era, yes - best of all time, possible, but nothing more Best of all time – the statistics prove it. The final arbiter is what you have won: Tai has three, no-one else has. Therefore, TW is the best Brit of all time. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Midland Red 2,383 Posted March 11, 2019 24 minutes ago, Richard Weston said: Best of all time – the statistics prove it. The final arbiter is what you have won: Tai has three, no-one else has. Therefore, TW is the best Brit of all time. No, they prove he's the most successful in terms of World Championship victories That's not the same as best of all time Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hodgy 976 Posted March 11, 2019 7 minutes ago, Midland Red said: No, they prove he's the most successful in terms of World Championship victories That's not the same as best of all time What is? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grachan 7,362 Posted March 11, 2019 2 hours ago, Midland Red said: A lot tougher than what? One just doesn't know How can anyone say a GP field in 2018 was tougher than the opposition the Farndons, Parkers, Prices, Cravens, etc had to face in their days? One just doesn't know - one can surmise, make all kinds of assertions, but they cannot be proven Successful in his era, yes - best of all time, possible, but nothing more Tougher than individual final line ups. Grand Prix meetings pretty much consist of the best 16 riders in the World. Individual finals didn't. For example, nobody would say that Peter Collins wasn't a deserving champion in 1976, but the top 2 riders in the World from the previous season weren't in the meeting. Of course, you could argue that it was because qualification was more difficult, but as meetings themselves, the GPs have stronger line ups. World finals also always had 4 or 5 fillers. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Midland Red 2,383 Posted March 11, 2019 41 minutes ago, Hodgy said: What is? Anybody's / everybody's opinion There's no way of proving who's the best over 90 years of racing - they've all ridden against different opposition Tai's clearly one of the most successful, if not the most successful As an aside - another discussion that's been argued elsewhere - a GP winner nowadays is not the best rider of the event but just the winner of one race (heat 23) The best rider is the highest points scorer in the 20 heats where every rider has raced against every other rider The eighth best rider can then go on to become GP winner Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chunky 6,108 Posted March 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Midland Red said: Anybody's / everybody's opinion There's no way of proving who's the best over 90 years of racing - they've all ridden against different opposition Tai's clearly one of the most successful, if not the most successful As an aside - another discussion that's been argued elsewhere - a GP winner nowadays is not the best rider of the event but just the winner of one race (heat 23) The best rider is the highest points scorer in the 20 heats where every rider has raced against every other rider The eighth best rider can then go on to become GP winner Winning a single GP is very different from winning a GP series over a whole season. Yes, there are anomalies within a GP system - as there are within most, if not all systems - but in order to become World Champion, a rider has to perform at a consistently high level. With the old World Finals, a rider could have one lucky night, and become World Champion. A rider could become World Champion after a small handful of meetings, only one or two of which would come close to including the majority of the "top 16" riders in the world. Steve 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chunky 6,108 Posted March 12, 2019 (edited) In 1978, Ole Olsen became World Champion after just 15 rides, and the Scandinavian Final lineup wasn't exactly chock full of World Class riders. Gordon Kennett took second after competing in six meetings, but the three British Qualifying Rounds, while not easy, didn't feature all the world's top names. Scott Autrey was third, after how many meetings? Probably just the American Final (which wasn't that tough back then), the I-C Final, and then the World Final itself Of these three, neither Olsen nor Autrey had to face Peter Collins, and the pair only had to face Lee, Jessup, and Simmons in just two races during the entire championship. Compare that to Woffinden facing Janowski, Zmarzlik, Doyle, Hancock etc every two weeks, sometimes two or three times in one night. Steve Edited March 12, 2019 by chunky 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sidney the robin 4,735 Posted March 12, 2019 4 hours ago, chunky said: In 1978, Ole Olsen became World Champion after just 15 rides, and the Scandinavian Final lineup wasn't exactly chock full of World Class riders. Gordon Kennett took second after competing in six meetings, but the three British Qualifying Rounds, while not easy, didn't feature all the world's top names. Scott Autrey was third, after how many meetings? Probably just the American Final (which wasn't that tough back then), the I-C Final, and then the World Final itself Of these three, neither Olsen nor Autrey had to face Peter Collins, and the pair only had to face Lee, Jessup, and Simmons in just two races during the entire championship. Compare that to Woffinden facing Janowski, Zmarzlik, Doyle, Hancock etc every two weeks, sometimes two or three times in one night. Steve The USA final was always a tough meeting ask the likes of Bobby Schwartz who suffered as badly as most over the years.Tai i like and he will probably go on and win more titles but for me the GP series is a different discipline to the old one off finals.My opinion is Ivan Mauger winning his six titles was harder than Tony Rickardsson winning his just an opinion though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sidney the robin 4,735 Posted March 12, 2019 9 hours ago, Midland Red said: No, they prove he's the most successful in terms of World Championship victories That's not the same as best of all time Peter Craven is a rider that i never see ride but for his untimely death he would of certainly won more titles also he was in a real tough era to.Tai is a rider i never really liked but he has won me over over the years and deserves every accolade he recieves.As you said everyone rode against different opposition so it is difficult to make a choice.All i would say is Lee/ Collins at there best are in the same bracket as Tai and Craven certainly is. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waytogo28 2,054 Posted March 12, 2019 Simply the Best British rider for me. Tai Woffinden. Go on to rack up 7 world titles Tai. That should bring a few more round to his outstanding ability. Coming pretty near to Tai is my first speedway hero - Ove Fundin. But yes, comparing different eras is just about impossible. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve roberts 9,246 Posted March 12, 2019 10 hours ago, Grachan said: Tougher than individual final line ups. Grand Prix meetings pretty much consist of the best 16 riders in the World. Individual finals didn't. For example, nobody would say that Peter Collins wasn't a deserving champion in 1976, but the top 2 riders in the World from the previous season weren't in the meeting. Of course, you could argue that it was because qualification was more difficult, but as meetings themselves, the GPs have stronger line ups. World finals also always had 4 or 5 fillers. Wasn't always the case during its formative conception. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites