Arthur73 Posted 14 hours ago Report Share Posted 14 hours ago 2 hours ago, mikebv said: The very fact we often mention changing race nights on here to "attract a crowd" speaks volumes doesn't it?.. And, as Plymouth has shown, it can work when moving to a weekend... The major issue of what they are actually racing for won't be resolved though... At the moment the only prize worth winning in UK Speedway the "Decent Crowd In The Play Offs"... However, how many of those attending the PO's have given "dead rubbers" a miss during the season is a valid point to raise, so the extra punters on the night isn't a total gain... Without something "really worth winning" UK Speedway simply won't get enough cut through in a world of huge prizes for a large number of sports... Given how the sport is set up, you can't help thinking that UK Speedway is just there to enable riders to earn by doing the sport, and to give Speedway loving people a chance to run a Speedway team as an expensive hobby.. With finishing positions in any of the leagues irrelevant due to no major prizes, no relegation, and, you can even swap your leagues if you so wish... Changing nights to weekend racing should give a short term boost, but changing much more will also be needed if long term improvement is the vision... I do think changing the racing nights could in the long run lead to more meaningful meetings and seasons. Glasgow and Poole may be more inclined to move up as their race nights match Premiership ones. Also, if this is paired with new reduced doubling up rules the championship will reduce in quality so both teams may want to move up to keep higher quality riders. 8 teams in the prem is already increases legitimacy. For relegation and promotion you then need all championship sides to want to move up. If Glasgow and Poole see a good increase in sales or return of results that will help massively. Edinburgh, Scunthorpe, Redcar and Oxford all race Monday-Friday so that's a good start. The other 3 teams race Saturday so might need more convincing however saying do you want to switch to Friday is much better than do you want to switch to Monday! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 valve Posted 14 hours ago Report Share Posted 14 hours ago 36 minutes ago, Arthur73 said: I do think changing the racing nights could in the long run lead to more meaningful meetings and seasons. Glasgow and Poole may be more inclined to move up as their race nights match Premiership ones. Also, if this is paired with new reduced doubling up rules the championship will reduce in quality so both teams may want to move up to keep higher quality riders. 8 teams in the prem is already increases legitimacy. For relegation and promotion you then need all championship sides to want to move up. If Glasgow and Poole see a good increase in sales or return of results that will help massively. Edinburgh, Scunthorpe, Redcar and Oxford all race Monday-Friday so that's a good start. The other 3 teams race Saturday so might need more convincing however saying do you want to switch to Friday is much better than do you want to switch to Monday! Yes. Have a league that runs on Friday & say good bye to all those Australians & Poles who ride in Poland, Danes, Swedes , Czech etc leaving enough riders for nine teams made up of current lower scoring Championship and NDL riders. Not a healthy recipe to ensure the continuation of speedway in Uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyd Posted 13 hours ago Report Share Posted 13 hours ago (edited) 1 hour ago, 1 valve said: Can’t see that being a relevant point for Howarth. As a rider who doubles up, he would ride at fifteen different tracks during the season including the two “home clubs” he’s left. There’s more behind his reason for quitting than taking a break - there’s sufficient time between October and March next year to rest up. I think its very relevant myself, Kyle has said that he and many other riders are fed up / sick of racing the same tracks. As a speedway rider (or any motor sport competitor) if they feel pi$$ed of and there head is not in the right place then a break from the sport is needed for there own sanity and there's and others safety. I'm sure a rider of Kyles quality and dedication he did not take this decision lightly. Edited 13 hours ago by tonyd 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 valve Posted 13 hours ago Report Share Posted 13 hours ago 11 minutes ago, tonyd said: I think its very relevant myself, Kyle has said that he and many other riders are fed up / sick of racing the same tracks. As a speedway rider (or any motor sport competitor) if they feel pi$$ed of and there head is not in the right place then a break from the sport is needed for there own sanity and there's and others safety. I'm sure a rider of Kyles quality and dedication he did not take this decision lightly. Howarth said he was fed up racing the same four tracks. That statement is irrelevant because he would ride 16 tracks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ouch Posted 13 hours ago Report Share Posted 13 hours ago The fact that speedway nowadays is ran by fans (albeit rich ones) shows by way of this forum how and why it is where it is. Imagine these very discussions taking place at the AGM. The main takeaway is, I can’t be bothered building a new track/stadium, spending time & money on a youth policy, improving the racenight experience, nurturing talent to the point they become world beaters, etc, etc, etc. Let’s throw the baby out with the bath water and continue to dumb down and kid the fans that by doing that we will overnight become interested in all the things mentioned that could actually improve the sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 valve Posted 13 hours ago Report Share Posted 13 hours ago 11 minutes ago, tonyd said: I think its very relevant myself, Kyle has said that he and many other riders are fed up / sick of racing the same tracks. As a speedway rider (or any motor sport competitor) if they feel pi$$ed of and there head is not in the right place then a break from the sport is needed for there own sanity and there's and others safety. I'm sure a rider of Kyles quality and dedication he did not take this decision lightly. Howarth said he was fed up racing the same four tracks. That statement is irrelevant because he would ride 16 tracks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur73 Posted 13 hours ago Report Share Posted 13 hours ago 33 minutes ago, 1 valve said: Yes. Have a league that runs on Friday & say good bye to all those Australians & Poles who ride in Poland, Danes, Swedes , Czech etc leaving enough riders for nine teams made up of current lower scoring Championship and NDL riders. Not a healthy recipe to ensure the continuation of speedway in Uk I understand that there will be a drop off in talent that is true. With the polish league + 1 league rule coming in this will happen to a smaller extent anyway. We will likely still retain Jason Doyle, Tom Brennan, Chris Holder, Ryan Douglas, Tobiasz Musielak who all race on Saturdays or Sundays in the 2nd polish league. I don't accept that the premier league will become poor quality enough that it will be full of national league riders Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ouch Posted 13 hours ago Report Share Posted 13 hours ago 41 minutes ago, tonyd said: I think its very relevant myself, Kyle has said that he and many other riders are fed up / sick of racing the same tracks. As a speedway rider (or any motor sport competitor) if they feel pi$$ed of and there head is not in the right place then a break from the sport is needed for there own sanity and there's and others safety. I'm sure a rider of Kyles quality and dedication he did not take this decision lightly. As a doubling up rider competing at all tracks in the UK, how would one league offer him any more variety? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ouch Posted 13 hours ago Report Share Posted 13 hours ago 1 hour ago, Arthur73 said: I do think changing the racing nights could in the long run lead to more meaningful meetings and seasons. Glasgow and Poole may be more inclined to move up as their race nights match Premiership ones. Also, if this is paired with new reduced doubling up rules the championship will reduce in quality so both teams may want to move up to keep higher quality riders. 8 teams in the prem is already increases legitimacy. For relegation and promotion you then need all championship sides to want to move up. If Glasgow and Poole see a good increase in sales or return of results that will help massively. Edinburgh, Scunthorpe, Redcar and Oxford all race Monday-Friday so that's a good start. The other 3 teams race Saturday so might need more convincing however saying do you want to switch to Friday is much better than do you want to switch to Monday! In 1976 less than half the teams in the league rode on a Saturday (6). 3 rode on a Friday with the other 10 riding mid week. This was at the height of the sports popularity yet most CHOOSE to open mid week. Moving to alternate nights to gain the biggest crowd happens in all industries. Film distributors will not go up against the blockbusters, bands will swerve dates when big hitters are in town and pubs will arrange theme nights on dates to attract the most punters. It’s not a case that Saturday is the holy grail and we need to avoid the negative connotations currently being associated with mid week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTT Posted 11 hours ago Report Share Posted 11 hours ago (edited) PREM would be very strong despite the two League Polish rule. Aussie's have to ride over here -> B. Cook, Z. Cook, Douglas, Doyle, Fricke, C. Holder, J. Holder, Kurtz, Lidsey, Masters and Pickering. British will remian -> Bewley, Brennan, Ellis, Flint, Harris, King, Lawson, Rowe, D. Thompson as well as riders like Cairns, Rushen, Scott and co. Musielak who opts for British Speedway over Danish/Swedish will remain and it's heavily rumoured that Woryna is a Witch in 2027 so that's another two Heat Leaders. We will basically lose the following. Blodorn (If he rides in Sweden) as well as Kvech, Iversen and Kilndt Edited 11 hours ago by TTT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 valve Posted 10 hours ago Report Share Posted 10 hours ago 39 minutes ago, TTT said: PREM would be very strong despite the two League Polish rule. Aussie's have to ride over here -> B. Cook, Z. Cook, Douglas, Doyle, Fricke, C. Holder, J. Holder, Kurtz, Lidsey, Masters and Pickering. British will remian -> Bewley, Brennan, Ellis, Flint, Harris, King, Lawson, Rowe, D. Thompson as well as riders like Cairns, Rushen, Scott and co. Musielak who opts for British Speedway over Danish/Swedish will remain and it's heavily rumoured that Woryna is a Witch in 2027 so that's another two Heat Leaders. We will basically lose the following. Blodorn (If he rides in Sweden) as well as Kvech, Iversen and Kilndt Spot on. So long as UK keep to Monday & Thursday otherwise almost all of those in your list will leave UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted 10 hours ago Report Share Posted 10 hours ago The bottom line is this... If there were several million pounds in prize money available then the sport would be seen as relevant, and would have consequence and jeopardy in every meeting, and would be followed by far, far many more people.. Even if NDL was the standard.... (Athough if there was big money in the UK sport then, naturally, that wouldn't be the case).... Darts is a perfect example of a sport which was followed by an older demographic and took place in big pubs, nightclubs, leisure centres and hotels around the country... With minimal prize money on offer, it took place in front of a few hundred, who sat often in silence during the throws, "best of order please", and then politely applauded when a game or set was won.. Then Sky, and more importantly, Barry Hearn came on board.. Big prize money brought big crowds, full of a much younger age demographic, in city centre venues, and also brought noise, atmosphere, and relevance, with olayers having to fight each season to keep their place in the top 16/32... Consequence and Jeopardy completely changed Darts, with even qualification tournaments being incredibly important to get through... Major sponsors and TV networks then organically came on board as the sport grew.... And more and more people have taken up the sport as they see the riches on offer,which then raises the standards... It will matter hardly one iota what UK Speedway does to race nigbts, league numbers, averages, admission prices etc etc etc.. Without that question of, (pardon the pun),... "What's actually riding on this meeting?"... Being answered with... "A hell of a lot!"... Without any prize to make the sport look relevant, and of a reasonable size, it will just keep ambling along, and just keep going through the motions of putting Speedway meetings on, regardless of being whether it is a credible offering or not.. And the fans wlll continue to vote with their feet.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ouch Posted 9 hours ago Report Share Posted 9 hours ago 29 minutes ago, mikebv said: The bottom line is this... If there were several million pounds in prize money available then the sport would be seen as relevant, and would have consequence and jeopardy in every meeting, and would be followed by far, far many more people.. Even if NDL was the standard.... (Athough if there was big money in the UK sport then, naturally, that wouldn't be the case).... Darts is a perfect example of a sport which was followed by an older demographic and took place in big pubs, nightclubs, leisure centres and hotels around the country... With minimal prize money on offer, it took place in front of a few hundred, who sat often in silence during the throws, "best of order please", and then politely applauded when a game or set was won.. Then Sky, and more importantly, Barry Hearn came on board.. Big prize money brought big crowds, full of a much younger age demographic, in city centre venues, and also brought noise, atmosphere, and relevance, with olayers having to fight each season to keep their place in the top 16/32... Consequence and Jeopardy completely changed Darts, with even qualification tournaments being incredibly important to get through... Major sponsors and TV networks then organically came on board as the sport grew.... And more and more people have taken up the sport as they see the riches on offer,which then raises the standards... It will matter hardly one iota what UK Speedway does to race nigbts, league numbers, averages, admission prices etc etc etc.. Without that question of, (pardon the pun),... "What's actually riding on this meeting?"... Being answered with... "A hell of a lot!"... Without any prize to make the sport look relevant, and of a reasonable size, it will just keep ambling along, and just keep going through the motions of putting Speedway meetings on, regardless of being whether it is a credible offering or not.. And the fans wlll continue to vote with their feet.. We need to emulate the Polish model and reward the league winners with a big pot of cash to make it relevant. Similarly the GP’s must offer a large incentive for winning a round and the overall title given its success and status in the sport. Does anyone know how much more an Extraliga team gets for winning the final and what percentage that win adds to their overall income? Also what are the big bucks for winning a GP (per heat) bearing in mind it could involve 10 heats (3 sprint & 7 heats), compared to the irrelevant amounts on offer for a UK domestic heat? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 valve Posted 6 hours ago Report Share Posted 6 hours ago 2 hours ago, ouch said: We need to emulate the Polish model and reward the league winners with a big pot of cash to make it relevant. Similarly the GP’s must offer a large incentive for winning a round and the overall title given its success and status in the sport. Does anyone know how much more an Extraliga team gets for winning the final and what percentage that win adds to their overall income? Also what are the big bucks for winning a GP (per heat) bearing in mind it could involve 10 heats (3 sprint & 7 heats), compared to the irrelevant amounts on offer for a UK domestic heat? Depending on exchange rates at the time. Winning the Extraliga earns the winning team circa £100k prize. The winner of a GP gets £10k with a sliding scale down to £4k for last place. No money paid for heats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enotian Posted 6 hours ago Report Share Posted 6 hours ago In summary, if you don't want to read the full post. 1. The product in the UK is rubbish. Needs to improve above all else. 2. Poland's dominance isn't good for the whole sport in the long term. It'll become a niche Polish sport nobody else is interested in. 3. If you want a UK league of GP stars then it can only be 14 fixtures the GP stars don't want to do more than that. Regardless who pays for them? Get the online gambling sites involved. Give them what they want so they can make money from it. 4. Why not follow the cricket T20 Franchise model. Where the best players travel the globe playing a slightly different version of the same competition in different regions in nice bite sized chunks that the modern casual sports fan likes. They're cricket fans for 4 weeks, they're tennis fans for 2 weeks, they're darts fans at Christmas etc etc. Why not Speedway fans for 3 weeks if the product is good? That's where the money is. First things first, the product in the UK is miles off where it needs to be. Track Prep, presentation, credibility the lot. I never returned after Covid as 15 minutes of action between scratch teams was often spread over 3 hours which nothing happening in between. Half time breaks of 30 minutes. It's an extreme sport I don't want to buy a fleece thanks. Dull. However, the whole sport needs to address the Polish dominance or it'll end up being a niche sport in Poland. The GP series will be full of Poles run exclusively in Poland with the rights sold only to a Polish broadcaster. Don't get me wrong the product in Poland is so much better that they deserve their place as world leaders and they do a decent job in allowing young riders form all nations to develop but ultimately if Polish speedway kills off other domestic leagues/the profile of the sport in other countries, where are those riders from different nations going to come from? It's short sighted on their and the sports governing bodies part if they want the sport to grow globally to access more revenue streams (TV deals and sponsorship). The sport is strangling itself at present. Is it as simple as saying Poland can't restrict where the best riders ride? Probably not. As we've seen if a British season is 30 odd fixtures that's too many for the top riders if they're also challenging to be World Champion. Maybe if it was 14 like Poland? But can British tracks survive with only 7 home fixtures a year? How do Polish clubs do it? Track ownership probably plays a part. And where's the money going from to fund these top riders even if they wanted to come? I've mentioned before get the online betting companies involved. They can't sponsor football teams anymore. Offer them whatever they want so they can make money out of it. There's loads of stats across a meeting which are verifiable that plenty would bet on if they marketed it right. Definitely more socially acceptable than better in animals. Whilst I like the darts reference earlier nobody is going to do that for Speedway, The infrastructure isn't there and its too bespoke making it expensive to to run. Darts is just a travelling circus rocking up at whatever standard arena has a big enough capacity for them to make enough in ticket sales. It rocks up once a year in those locations takes the money and moves on to the next. How can speedway do that where the racing needs bespoke tracks in bespoke stadiums? Cricket is an interesting comparison. India dominates in terms of the market, just like Poland. They could play to Indian crowds all year long but they make more money if they can sell the TV rights globally. To do that they have to have big names from around the world involved. So they have their own travelling circus, the IPL, which becomes the big bash in Australia and the Hundred in England albeit run by different promoters but essentially the same product in a different region. That's what NBA Europe is all about. English cricket only survived on income from Test matches. They were becomes less popular apart from the Ashes so less funds trickled down to the counties. Now there's the Hundred and there's more TV money and sponsorship to distribute across the counties. Some of them aren't even in it but they allow their players to play for the franchises that are in it because they get a share. Some of those franchises are now owned by Indian owners because there's money to be made across the globe not just in India. The speedway equivalent? The Super 7. 7 Teams 4TT. Each Team has two home fixtures so 14 qualifying events, 8 meetings for the riders. Top 3 to the Final Bottom 4 play off for the last spot in the Final. 16 meetings in total. 2 GP riders per team the other 3 places taken by domestic riders. No guests no R/R. Get it all done over 3 weeks around the British GP, attention spans are much shorter now, casual fans don't want to follow a season that takes 6 months. Much better chance of selling that to TV and marketing it. Make some money filter some of it down to the domestic clubs then the circus moves on to Scandinavia for their version, Poland for theirs. Even aim to send it to Australia and the US in the European winter. Domestically? Run whatever is sustainable. Accept that the GP stars appear for a 3 weeks spell, 16 meetings plus however many GP's. Hopefully some of the casual supporters who enjoyed the Super 7 rock up to see their local club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gasser90 Posted 6 hours ago Report Share Posted 6 hours ago 4 hours ago, TTT said: PREM would be very strong despite the two League Polish rule. Aussie's have to ride over here -> B. Cook, Z. Cook, Douglas, Doyle, Fricke, C. Holder, J. Holder, Kurtz, Lidsey, Masters and Pickering. British will remian -> Bewley, Brennan, Ellis, Flint, Harris, King, Lawson, Rowe, D. Thompson as well as riders like Cairns, Rushen, Scott and co. Musielak who opts for British Speedway over Danish/Swedish will remain and it's heavily rumoured that Woryna is a Witch in 2027 so that's another two Heat Leaders. We will basically lose the following. Blodorn (If he rides in Sweden) as well as Kvech, Iversen and Kilndt The Aussies don’t have to ride over here at all ?! It’s just as easy if not easier to get a visa to live and work out of Poland than it is the UK, Jaimon lidsey lives in Poland and tungate all this the Aussies have to race here as they live here is rubbish, the bottom line is if they wanna be in Poland then they will, 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted 5 hours ago Report Share Posted 5 hours ago 3 hours ago, ouch said: We need to emulate the Polish model and reward the league winners with a big pot of cash to make it relevant. Similarly the GP’s must offer a large incentive for winning a round and the overall title given its success and status in the sport. Does anyone know how much more an Extraliga team gets for winning the final and what percentage that win adds to their overall income? Also what are the big bucks for winning a GP (per heat) bearing in mind it could involve 10 heats (3 sprint & 7 heats), compared to the irrelevant amounts on offer for a UK domestic heat? A Polish top tier team gets, according to AI, a minimum, $8M dollars a year... If they followed the UK model, then they would be lucky to earn 5% of that, given TV, Sponsors, and Fans wouldn't be engaged.. As for the GP's? The riders earn plenty from sponsors, and can use their GP position to negotiate better terms in Poland's top tier.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTT Posted 5 hours ago Report Share Posted 5 hours ago 29 minutes ago, Gasser90 said: The Aussies don’t have to ride over here at all ?! It’s just as easy if not easier to get a visa to live and work out of Poland than it is the UK, Jaimon lidsey lives in Poland and tungate all this the Aussies have to race here as they live here is rubbish, the bottom line is if they wanna be in Poland then they will, That's not true though is it. You live over here then you ride over here and England is Home away from Home when it comes to the Aussie's hence why they relocate here, The countries are pretty much identical with only a minor difference. Denmark and Sweden are the ones who are going to suffer via the Polish rule, Not Britain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowboy cookie returns? Posted 4 hours ago Report Share Posted 4 hours ago I think the Ipswich promotion is spot on. You have to work with Poland. They have spent the last 35 years since the fall of communism building their league speedway. They are not going way. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gasser90 Posted 4 hours ago Report Share Posted 4 hours ago 48 minutes ago, TTT said: That's not true though is it. You live over here then you ride over here and England is Home away from Home when it comes to the Aussie's hence why they relocate here, The countries are pretty much identical with only a minor difference. Denmark and Sweden are the ones who are going to suffer via the Polish rule, Not Britain. Absolutely if they chose to get a visa for here and live here it makes sense to ride here, but what I’m saying is that it’s just as easy to get a visa to live in Poland, move heard first hand from Aussie riders that say it’s actually easier to set up base in Poland than it is England, especially if they do ride in polish leagues as they have to practice twice a week out there anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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