szkocjasid 2,800 Posted September 5, 2021 (edited) The Champ feels strong because clubs can have 3 x Prem heat leaders in their side! But with a stronger top division these riders wouldn't be Prem heat leaders & the Champ wouldn't look so strong! Edited September 6, 2021 by szkocjasid Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skidder1 7,607 Posted September 5, 2021 The stature of the riders makes very little difference to the standard of racing. You only have to look at the last SGP!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
redlead 104 Posted September 5, 2021 In the 70's the top 20 riders averaged 9 or over. Today there are one or two riders who average over 9. With only about 3 riders riding Prem League exclusively, the general standard of both leagues is poor by past standards. In the 70's a heat leader in the 2nd division would be a reserve in the 1st div, today there is very little or no difference between the 2 leagues. So I think the standard in the 2nd tier, is poor by past standards. However just because the standard is lower, it doesn't mean the racing is poorer. At Redcar we see great racing every meeting. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OML 31 Posted September 5, 2021 1 hour ago, redlead said: In the 70's the top 20 riders averaged 9 or over. Today there are one or two riders who average over 9. With only about 3 riders riding Prem League exclusively, the general standard of both leagues is poor by past standards. In the 70's a heat leader in the 2nd division would be a reserve in the 1st div, today there is very little or no difference between the 2 leagues. So I think the standard in the 2nd tier, is poor by past standards. However just because the standard is lower, it doesn't mean the racing is poorer. At Redcar we see great racing every meeting. Over the 13 heat format of the 70's opposing number 1's only met in heat 1. Now they meet in 1, 13 and usually 15 so it is much harder to get a 9 point average now than it was then. Also, bonus points counted in the averages then but don't now. 6 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted September 6, 2021 6 hours ago, redlead said: In the 70's the top 20 riders averaged 9 or over. Today there are one or two riders who average over 9. With only about 3 riders riding Prem League exclusively, the general standard of both leagues is poor by past standards. In the 70's a heat leader in the 2nd division would be a reserve in the 1st div, today there is very little or no difference between the 2 leagues. So I think the standard in the 2nd tier, is poor by past standards. However just because the standard is lower, it doesn't mean the racing is poorer. At Redcar we see great racing every meeting. PLEASE don't use averages that way to indicate the strength or weakness of the league. What the top riders in a league average is irrelevant to the strength of a league - though if anything high averages of the top riders may equate to lower strenghth in depth, though as the post above points out, race format and other factors need to be tsken into account. Doubling up also tells us nothing about the standard, other than that the gap betwewn the two leagues has reduced. Relative to world standards I'd agree the quality of both leagues has dropped, and also agree with your assertion that the racing quality can be just as good. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pinny 2,527 Posted September 6, 2021 I remember having a debate with BWitcher on here only a couple of years ago where he was trying to tell me that if you put the likes of Ricky Wells and Kyle Howarth in the second tier twenty years ago, they'd of been the top men. Lol. As said, the second tier looks so strong now because any decent rider has given up on the UK and the top tier has to find its riders from somewhere. Both leagues are in a mess. I think in the early 2000's there was EIGHTEEN teams in the Premier League. A Premier trophy group of 4/5, KO cup ties and a league match home and away vs each team. It was a rare occurrence to have a blank raceday throughout the season except for weather. It was an action packed season. You seen the top riders every week and it was nowhere near as common for riders to be missing. The doubling up system was brought in where an Elite League club could use two Premier League riders to fill one position. It seemed to work pretty well for a while. We have been through how great those days were so many times and no doubt will continue to do so. Sadly, the sport will never go back to those days. Its just dying a slow, painful death. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikebv 10,130 Posted September 6, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, OML said: Over the 13 heat format of the 70's opposing number 1's only met in heat 1. Now they meet in 1, 13 and usually 15 so it is much harder to get a 9 point average now than it was then. Also, bonus points counted in the averages then but don't now. And no fixed gate positions either, meaning a No1 could choose the best of the two available to his team if he wanted to... And (usually), only 4 races a night, unless getting put in an "easy" race as a Tac Sub against a second string and a reserve.. Edited September 6, 2021 by mikebv Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OGT 612 Posted September 6, 2021 18 hours ago, Endeavour said: Previously unheard of a rider being number 1 for his team in both leagues. *Coughs* Andy Grahame, Birmingham and Milton Keynes. 1979. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iainb 4,831 Posted September 6, 2021 (edited) I do think that we have to remember Covid has played a massive part in team make ups this season, there are a lot of foreign riders (non GP) that just aren't riding in our leagues this season because of travel difficulties, especially at the time when teams were assembled. Also the Poland 2 leagues only rule has had an effect, whether this was brought in due to Covid or self interest I'm not sure, now it's in place though will it change? Some riders, the more professional ones, have been able to work around these restrictions and carry on as usual. Doubling down has enabled many clubs to run this year... but may also have closed at least one of them. Edited September 6, 2021 by iainb Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paulco 7,047 Posted September 6, 2021 20 hours ago, Endeavour said: I would venture that some people think that second tier is strong because top tier standard is so poor. Previously unheard of a rider being number 1 for his team in both leagues. There lies the problem . We've had a much stronger second tier in the past. Blimey in 2004 my team had Parker , Stancl, Grieves and Bentley and finished 11th . It's the weakness of the top flight that gives the impression that the second tier is too strong 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pinny 2,527 Posted September 6, 2021 5 minutes ago, Paulco said: There lies the problem . We've had a much stronger second tier in the past. Blimey in 2004 my team had Parker , Stancl, Grieves and Bentley and finished 11th . It's the weakness of the top flight that gives the impression that the second tier is too strong Same as quite a few teams too, remember Trelawny with Harris, Zagar , Sanchez, Masters , we had Iversen, Watson, Smart, Atkin , god compare that with what you get now. As said many times, the watering down of the leagues has seen the crowds drop at the same rate. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cityrebel 2,960 Posted September 6, 2021 I wouldn't say the strongest, but probably the most expensive. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fromafar 10,200 Posted September 6, 2021 36 minutes ago, cityrebel said: I wouldn't say the strongest, but probably the most expensive. Agree, sooner or later the riders are going to have to wake up. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
M.D 459 Posted September 6, 2021 12 minutes ago, Fromafar said: Agree, sooner or later the riders are going to have to wake up. Or be told to wake up 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
allthegearbutnaeidea 1,704 Posted September 6, 2021 Bring back the early 2000’s era Share this post Link to post Share on other sites