UK Speedway in Turmoil?

[truthsayer 234]

15 minutes ago, mikebv said:

The sport in the UK will never be successful without making it worth watching by those unaware of it...

And to do that you need a focal point to create interest..

And that is hyoe and money...

Darts for example came from nowhere due to the money being put up..

The big prize creates interest, and sponsorship off the back of it..

Seven clubs in the Prem, averaging say 1200 a night, at £20 a pop, for 12 matches a season each, would bring in collectively over 2 million quid in income..

Meaning that clubs must pay out an extraordinary amount if they struggle to keep heads above water with that level of income..

Maybe spending some of that incredible output and making a few "big prize" comps would help the whole league structure be more visited off the back of them? 

It seems folly to spend so much, and all we have is what we have today to show for it... 

Edit. And the 2nd tier must pay out over a million collectively..

Over 3 million quid is an incredible amount to deliver the current situation..

I think you are right but you are also wrong.

Yes, hype works as does prize money. That's true.

Speedway, as a team sport, is such a hard sell. I just can't see people buying into the concept. Maybe I am wrong, but (football and national sports excepted) people are mesmerised by individuals and not teams. In speedway, for every top name, there's another middling rider in the team to balance it out.

Big show needs big venues - top stadia or better still indoor arenas to create a consistent product.

Motorsport is also expensive to put on and to access, although speedway is an inexpensive motorsport - which convinces me that there's maybe a proposition to build it as a participation sport.

Indoor racing and electric are both PR opportunities to 'relaunch' the sport and to shoot it into the minds of those who have long forgotten about it, or who may find more appeal in a more comfortable environment.

Darts is an arena sport. I could see speedway as an arena sport. Pissed up fans, right on top of the riders and a gladiatorial environment with music and lights. The whole 'filling the programme in and tac sub nonsense is just way too anorak for a modern sport)...

Supercross is probably the closest example to what speedway could be. Personally, I'm not a massive fan of the racing but the show is spectacular and the personalities big. Logistically, I just don't see how it could be possible though.

But the thing with supercross is that it is the hero product. Below that there are national and regional motocross championships, riders riding as a hobby and a whole industry going on below it.

A hero speedway product still allows the boring league product to exist if there's a demand for it, but a grassroots product is probably even more essential - because your idea falls apart immediately due to the lack of riders and venues currently economically available.

 

 

 

[mikebv 10,292]

34 minutes ago, truthsayer said:

I think you are right but you are also wrong.

Yes, hype works as does prize money. That's true.

Speedway, as a team sport, is such a hard sell. I just can't see people buying into the concept. Maybe I am wrong, but (football and national sports excepted) people are mesmerised by individuals and not teams. In speedway, for every top name, there's another middling rider in the team to balance it out.

Big show needs big venues - top stadia or better still indoor arenas to create a consistent product.

Motorsport is also expensive to put on and to access, although speedway is an inexpensive motorsport - which convinces me that there's maybe a proposition to build it as a participation sport.

Indoor racing and electric are both PR opportunities to 'relaunch' the sport and to shoot it into the minds of those who have long forgotten about it, or who may find more appeal in a more comfortable environment.

Darts is an arena sport. I could see speedway as an arena sport. Pissed up fans, right on top of the riders and a gladiatorial environment with music and lights. The whole 'filling the programme in and tac sub nonsense is just way too anorak for a modern sport)...

Supercross is probably the closest example to what speedway could be. Personally, I'm not a massive fan of the racing but the show is spectacular and the personalities big. Logistically, I just don't see how it could be possible though.

But the thing with supercross is that it is the hero product. Below that there are national and regional motocross championships, riders riding as a hobby and a whole industry going on below it.

A hero speedway product still allows the boring league product to exist if there's a demand for it, but a grassroots product is probably even more essential - because your idea falls apart immediately due to the lack of riders and venues currently economically available.

 

 

 

There needs to be two clear demarcations..

One "the elite" competition that can resonate with the wider public and "sell the sport"..

With "superstars", you don't need many riders just 16 of the best..

The other, being the day to day racing with "anyone" who can ride a bike (like we have today)...

The bottom line is the current team operating model engenders zero emotional attachment for the vast majority of fans, and lapsed fans..

Therefore to keep paying out literally millions for "sod all" is ridiculous.. 

Great sport, with a quite considerable following as Cardiff and the SON, and WTC at the NSS have showed over the past few years..

Harness and target that considerable outlay to advance the sport, rather than just let it disappear with no postive impact to it, as currently happens..

You stick a £250k prize fund comp at the NSS over a weekend and you would get a thousand times more coverage from the wider media than a whole season of team speedway in the UK would...

And a full house which reflects well on the brand during the TV coverage..

Unlike the current "one man and his dog" at live UK broadcasts..

And that £250k is less than 10% than what they all pay out now each season I would suggest..

Which achieves? 

 

.

[SuperSpeed 24]

14 hours ago, steve roberts said:

I seem to recall that they tried something similar at Brighton but I've never seen any footage?

Martin Dugard ran the "Brighton Bonanza" indoors at the Brighton Centre for around 10 years I think in the late 90s/early 00s, on a temporary shale track.

There are a few clips on YouTube:  https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=brighton+bonanza+speedway

And quite an interesting article on it here, with a picture of Edward Kennett driving a forklift:  http://www.speedwayplus.co.uk/Bonanza.shtml

[iainb 5,022]

19 hours ago, Bald Bloke said:

All you need is a roundabout near you. Cheap as chips racing 

Roundabout Speedway na rondzie żużel Lublin - #redbull team - YouTube

That's the thing Guy Martin had a go at on one of his TV shows a few years ago... reminds me a bit of Cribby going round shale tracks on his ice bike

[HGould 2,213]

The sad reality, despite glimmers and slithers of positivity is best summed up by Wembley and Cardiff.

Back in the 70's and 80's around 35-40 UK Tracks operated and if you didn't have a Wembley World Final One Off (3 year cycle) Ticket by May - you would not get one as they were guaranteed 90,000 plus sell outs.

Now with around 20 Tracks operating the annual trip to Cardiff struggles to generate 40,000 fans and that figure seem to be declining.

The regularly attending "speedway audience" is at historically low level, the demograph is rivalled only by the Membership of the Conservative Party for the over 60 age percentage.

Many Clubs have tried to attract kids, some better than others and some of the best at it are no longer running! 

The sooner the reality (as some have suggested) that it adopts the MX SuperMX model the better. The thoughts though of filling indoor Stadia with a Speedway product are pie in the sky.

 

 

[truthsayer 234]

1 hour ago, HGould said:

The sooner the reality (as some have suggested) that it adopts the MX SuperMX model the better. The thoughts though of filling indoor Stadia with a Speedway product are pie in the sky.

 

 

Stadium motocross (Supercross) and arena motocross (Arenacross) audiences are not much to shout about in the UK. I'd doubt they make money.

The benefit motocross has is a fairly solid participation base, and products made by mainstream motorcycle brands.

I am a lifelong speedway fan and I find the team sport thing tenuous. I can’t believe today’s more sophisticated consumer will buy into it.

The interaction between team mates in speedway is negligible. They are just a bunch of individuals who wear the same colour and the team that wins is the one whose individuals score the most points collectively. Compare this to real team sports, where the individuals work closely together. They pass a ball between each other, with players having a specialist role to play. I just don’t get it.

I get how it could have been in the past. People were less discerning. Teams were more stable and often more local, so there was a connection with the individuals that made up the team.

Even in some of the sports which have huge emphasis on the team (think Formula One and cycling, a la Tour de France) the focus is on the individuals. Real teams, like national teams as seen at the recent World Cup, interests me a bit, but personally I just want to see riders racing for themselves and would see that as a future to introduce new spectators, and riders, to the sport.

Speedway needs to start at the ground up, as an individual amateur sport. League speedway can still have a place, but it has to be commercially viable and a separate entity to the individual sport.

[steve roberts 9,246]

29 minutes ago, truthsayer said:

Stadium motocross (Supercross) and arena motocross (Arenacross) audiences are not much to shout about in the UK. I'd doubt they make money.

The benefit motocross has is a fairly solid participation base, and products made by mainstream motorcycle brands.

I am a lifelong speedway fan and I find the team sport thing tenuous. I can’t believe today’s more sophisticated consumer will buy into it.

The interaction between team mates in speedway is negligible. They are just a bunch of individuals who wear the same colour and the team that wins is the one whose individuals score the most points collectively. Compare this to real team sports, where the individuals work closely together. They pass a ball between each other, with players having a specialist role to play. I just don’t get it.

I get how it could have been in the past. People were less discerning. Teams were more stable and often more local, so there was a connection with the individuals that made up the team.

Even in some of the sports which have huge emphasis on the team (think Formula One and cycling, a la Tour de France) the focus is on the individuals. Real teams, like national teams as seen at the recent World Cup, interests me a bit, but personally I just want to see riders racing for themselves and would see that as a future to introduce new spectators, and riders, to the sport.

Speedway needs to start at the ground up, as an individual amateur sport. League speedway can still have a place, but it has to be commercially viable and a separate entity to the individual sport.

Absolutely. It's an interesting analogy because when speedway was first introduced to these shores individual meetings were the norm and altough initial interest was huge people soon grew tired of that concept and team speedway was introduced. Not sure if going back to an individual format would be the answer but that's just my opinion as we now live in a very different world and expectations I guess are different?

[truthsayer 234]

19 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

Absolutely. It's an interesting analogy because when speedway was first introduced to these shores individual meetings were the norm and altough initial interest was huge people soon grew tired of that concept and team speedway was introduced. Not sure if going back to an individual format would be the answer but that's just my opinion as we now live in a very different world and expectations I guess are different?

I think you're kind of right on this, in as much as the diehard support wants team racing and turning that off would be the final nail in the coffin right now.

But the challenge, as much as getting new supporters, is getting new riders. And there's little opportunity for riders to enjoy speedway as a sport. If you're not in a team, there's nothing and that remains a major barrier to getting riders into the sport. If you don't want to race team speedway, there's no place in the sport for you. And that's wrong for a motorsport.

I believe team speedway still has a significant part to play in a future of speedway, but only a part, and only alongside a solid foundation of a motorsport with high participation. Right now the business model is ALL about getting spectators along to watch team speedway at legacy venues, in a legacy format. So the survival of speedway depends on league speedway and that's wrong, and dangerous. 

If professional cycling/football/rugby collapsed, the sport would still exist and a rebuild could take place. When professional speedway dies (and it will, soon) there will be nothing left upon which to rebuild the sport.

Edited August 4, 2023 by truthsayer
.

[Chris116 756]

There have been a number of comments about racing on tarmac. When Wimbledon stadium was in its last months Spedeworth, the stock car promotion, had a number of speedway riders have a last ride around the track during a stock car meeting. Gordon Kennett showed everyone just how to slide around the bends on a tarmac track and looked as if he was on a slick track.

The video is on YouTube https://youtu.be/72e5JMM3abI

Edited August 4, 2023 by Chris116
Added link to YouTube

[iris123 20,995]

1 hour ago, Chris116 said:

There have been a number of comments about racing on tarmac. When Wimbledon stadium was in its last months Spedeworth, the stock car promotion, had a number of speedway riders have a last ride around the track during a stock car meeting. Gordon Kennett showed everyone just how to slide around the bends on a tarmac track and looked as if he was on a slick track.

The video is on YouTube https://youtu.be/72e5JMM3abI

Yes, well done to Gordon. Been out a long time and was the only one really giving it a go. Sure my cousin was also out on track with him. But nobody is going to pay good money to watch 4 riders going round like that, surely ?

[JamesHarris 390]

9 hours ago, steve roberts said:

Absolutely. It's an interesting analogy because when speedway was first introduced to these shores individual meetings were the norm and altough initial interest was huge people soon grew tired of that concept and team speedway was introduced. Not sure if going back to an individual format would be the answer but that's just my opinion as we now live in a very different world and expectations I guess are different?

I think a mix of both individual and team would be good. As someone has already pointed out the British system at the moment is solely focussed on an outdated two team format. This format obviously does work well in Poland and Sweden but am I right in suggesting they are run as motorsport clubs rather than a promotion? With it looking likely that there will be less teams operating here next year perhaps it is the time to run the league on a four team tournament  format so you're having the best of both? 

I do remember back in the day we used to have a lot of prestigious individual open meetings. I'm not saying that if we had these again the promoters should be throwing money around to bring in the GP riders (they'd be broke within a month) but it would be a good way to include tourist riders or Scandinavians and Continentals looking to put themselves out there. Always generated interest amongst the punters when an unsigned Danish youngsters turned up for an open meeting.  

[steve roberts 9,246]

Just now, JamesHarris said:

I think a mix of both individual and team would be good. As someone has already pointed out the British system at the moment is solely focussed on an outdated two team format. This format obviously does work well in Poland and Sweden but am I right in suggesting they are run as motorsport clubs rather than a promotion? With it looking likely that there will be less teams operating here next year perhaps it is the time to run the league on a four team tournament  format so you're having the best of both? 

I do remember back in the day we used to have a lot of prestigious individual open meetings. I'm not saying that if we had these again the promoters should be throwing money around to bring in the GP riders (they'd be broke within a month) but it would be a good way to include tourist riders or Scandinavians and Continentals looking to put themselves out there. Always generated interest amongst the punters when an unsigned Danish youngsters turned up for an open meeting.  

Yes I remember most tracks would stage at least one big meeting a season and I personally used to enjoy travelling to various events however fans began to be less inclined to watch them and slowly they were dropped from the programme more's the pity. The BLRC was one of the biggest events of the season but even riders towards the end became choosy as regards putting in an appearance. Perhaps it's time to re-introduce a bit of variety again (4TT, Best Pairs and Test Matches?) in the way that you have suggested?

[enotian 562]

9 hours ago, truthsayer said:

Stadium motocross (Supercross) and arena motocross (Arenacross) audiences are not much to shout about in the UK. I'd doubt they make money.

The benefit motocross has is a fairly solid participation base, and products made by mainstream motorcycle brands.

I am a lifelong speedway fan and I find the team sport thing tenuous. I can’t believe today’s more sophisticated consumer will buy into it.

The interaction between team mates in speedway is negligible. They are just a bunch of individuals who wear the same colour and the team that wins is the one whose individuals score the most points collectively. Compare this to real team sports, where the individuals work closely together. They pass a ball between each other, with players having a specialist role to play. I just don’t get it.

I get how it could have been in the past. People were less discerning. Teams were more stable and often more local, so there was a connection with the individuals that made up the team.

Even in some of the sports which have huge emphasis on the team (think Formula One and cycling, a la Tour de France) the focus is on the individuals. Real teams, like national teams as seen at the recent World Cup, interests me a bit, but personally I just want to see riders racing for themselves and would see that as a future to introduce new spectators, and riders, to the sport.

Speedway needs to start at the ground up, as an individual amateur sport. League speedway can still have a place, but it has to be commercially viable and a separate entity to the individual sport.

you're right. it's a little like when they do team events in snooker and darts etc.  it's really just individuals doing their own thing which consequently is added to another individuals contribution. there's no real in game interaction.

however, that's not quite true for speedway team racing or pairs. or at least it shouldn't be because in those events the art of team riding on track is one of the greatest examples of team work in all of sports. it just doesn't happen anymore!!!

and that's purely down to the pay per point system adopted imo. why would a rider jeopardise being paid for three points by slowing down to help a team mate score more points. there's no incentive whatsoever. just go and score as many points as you can to earn as much as you can. if the team wins great if it doesn't nevermind.

what if instead of pay per point each heat had a prize pot? a team who wins the heat takes the prize pot, if it's drawn the prize pot is shared. each team then decides how they split the total prize money. a little like tour cycling albeit those riders are salaried. 

in reality supporting any team is the ultimate in living vicariously. claiming victory off the back of the team you support winning, feeling superior to the opposition supporters when in reality you contributed absolutely nothing to the victory. you wouldn't claim to be an amazing chef if you bought a nice meal at a restaurant.

but there's just something about nailing your colours to a mast and putting your hopes and dreams in the hands of your favourite team. it would be a shame if that element disappeared from speedway in this country.

 

 

 

[iainb 5,022]

11 hours ago, JamesHarris said:

I think a mix of both individual and team would be good. As someone has already pointed out the British system at the moment is solely focussed on an outdated two team format. This format obviously does work well in Poland and Sweden but am I right in suggesting they are run as motorsport clubs rather than a promotion? With it looking likely that there will be less teams operating here next year perhaps it is the time to run the league on a four team tournament  format so you're having the best of both? 

I do remember back in the day we used to have a lot of prestigious individual open meetings. I'm not saying that if we had these again the promoters should be throwing money around to bring in the GP riders (they'd be broke within a month) but it would be a good way to include tourist riders or Scandinavians and Continentals looking to put themselves out there. Always generated interest amongst the punters when an unsigned Danish youngsters turned up for an open meeting.  

I think the key is staging events the riders want to ride in and the punters want to pay to watch,  obvious really and not rocket science. Events like the, I'm going to call it, first division riders championship and pairs where riders are "forced" to ride for a fixed BSPL rate means that riders don't really want to ride in it and therefore come up with any excuse under the sun not to ride in it devaluing the competition which in turn puts the fans off.

Events like the Peter Craven Memorial Trophy held at Belle Vue really seems to have built up some prestige around it. It's run a little differently with a 5 rider semi and 6 rider final, which is truly spectacular, obviously most tracks it's probably not safe to do that but there are a number of different formats that could be run, you've just got to think outside of the box a little bit.

Edited August 5, 2023 by iainb

[steve roberts 9,246]

58 minutes ago, iainb said:

I think the key is staging events the riders want to ride in and the punters want to pay to watch,  obvious really and not rocket science. Events like the, I'm going to call it, first division riders championship and pairs where riders are "forced" to ride for a fixed BSPL rate means that riders don't really want to ride in it and therefore come up with any excuse under the sun not to ride in it devaluing the competition which in turn puts the fans off.

Events like the Peter Craven Memorial Trophy held at Belle Vue really seems to have built up some prestige around it. It's run a little differently with a 5 rider semi and 6 rider final, which is truly spectacular, obviously most tracks it's probably not safe to do that but there are a number of different formats that could be run, you've just got to think outside of the box a little bit.

I used to enjoy watching the variety of meetings served up (4TT, Pairs, Individual,Test Matches...but not 3TT!) but ultimately team meetings was my preferred choice. Trouble was that the punters turned their backs on the various disciplines and many promoters ultimately pulled the plug. Perhaps it's time to "re-invent" these formants in one way or another hoping to reinvigorate the imagination?

I recall the 16 Lapper held at Ipswich and Swindon which initially proved successful and I remember going to at least two at Swindon.

Edited August 5, 2023 by steve roberts