mikebv Posted January 9 Report Share Posted January 9 (edited) 57 minutes ago, ouch said: They need to be upfront with the fans and the riders about the state of the sport and prepare both for one big league. It’s already been established what the make up of teams will be and that our future top stars are the current 1-2 in the Championship. Polish rules and random race-nights will see the current set of top stars disappear from the UK. Doubling up will end so even some current Championship 1-2 (or more) will jump ship and we’ll end up with an NDL+ product. Nothing wrong with that at all at £10-£15 admission but that won’t be possible. Crowds will drop due to what’s on offer so if anything admission will go up to cover costs as has been the case for decades. The only way to stop this is to pay riders less but then you have additional riders turning their backs on the sport and standards drop further. Next season onwards we need to be looking at a semi pro/amateur level but unfortunately for us fans at an Elite admission (background costs remain whether Elite or amateur riders take to the track). I see crowds dropping further leading to the inevitable track closures. I think we’ll get to “celebrate” our centenary but after that it’ll be The Colts and the odd bank holiday meeting with top riders shipped back in to keep the NSS as a worthwhile operation. There is an alternative but very little ambition, know how and collective responsibility to achieve it from most running our sport. The frustration is that there is still a decent market for the sport in the UK... It's just not a market that team Speedway regularly attracts due to the nonsense operating model that is allowed to pervade, the lack of jeopardy and consequence to so many meetings and the leagues, the seemingly lack of any "decent prize" for winning anything, and the admission costs which reflect the outgoings being paid, rather than reflecting the standard of what is actually being delivered to the punters.. The NSS will have around 2500 watching the PCMM (presumably being ran?), and around 6,000 will attend each night at the GP's... So. If you put some "Proper Speedway" out, you can still get a good following for it... The Aces this year will, once again, run with crowds much lower than the PCMM meeting, as many Aces followers simply won't follow up their PCMM visit due to not buying into the league structures being used, and also due to saving their cash for the GP's... Yet, like all other tracks, will see a significant increase come play off time due to its natural "make or break" nature, which finally gives off some semblance of relevance for the sport.... I would suggest the sport has as many close followers of it who don't attend each week as those who do... What an opportunity for growth if anyone could actually ever lead it properly, using Vision, Strategy, and Ambition... NB. Having Mark Lemon and Rob Lyon on the Leadership Team is something that could help shape a better future... Getting cut through and agreement from so many of their peers, who want so many different things from the sport, will be the major challenge though, as always.. Edited January 9 by mikebv 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ouch Posted January 9 Report Share Posted January 9 1 hour ago, mikebv said: The frustration is that there is still a decent market for the sport in the UK... It's just not a market that team Speedway regularly attracts due to the nonsense operating model that is allowed to pervade, the lack of jeopardy and consequence to so many meetings and the leagues, the seemingly lack of any "decent prize" for winning anything, and the admission costs which reflect the outgoings being paid, rather than reflecting the standard of what is actually being delivered to the punters.. The NSS will have around 2500 watching the PCMM (presumably being ran?), and around 6,000 will attend each night at the GP's... So. If you put some "Proper Speedway" out, you can still get a good following for it... The Aces this year will, once again, run with crowds much lower than the PCMM meeting, as many Aces followers simply won't follow up their PCMM visit due to not buying into the league structures being used, and also due to saving their cash for the GP's... Yet, like all other tracks, will see a significant increase come play off time due to its natural "make or break" nature, which finally gives off some semblance of relevance for the sport.... I would suggest the sport has as many close followers of it who don't attend each week as those who do... What an opportunity for growth if anyone could actually ever lead it properly, using Vision, Strategy, and Ambition... NB. Having Mark Lemon and Rob Lyon on the Leadership Team is something that could help shape a better future... Getting cut through and agreement from so many of their peers, who want so many different things from the sport, will be the major challenge though, as always.. There’s no real jeopardy at the PCMT as it’s just our individual meeting in tribute to the great man. The key to the big crowds is the level of the participants. Top riders attract a bigger audience, even at an increased admission cost. You’re right about the play offs and it’s great the extra crowds turn up but not so great for teams not in it nor the qualifiers. One of my gripes that fell on deaf ears when they came about was the implied importance or not of certain fixture in peoples minds. People, though they may not realise, like to be told what to do and adopt herd mentality. Back in the day all meetings had similar importance for most of the season. Even teams that knew they couldn’t win the league wanted to finish as high up as possible or beat the title chasing teams. This led to a consistent attendance. Now we are told that some fixtures are way more important than others, we naturally start to pick and choose. Play off finalist can make up some of the shortfall but others do not. The result for the sport as a whole is a nett loss. I think now as I did then that the play offs have had a lot to do with dwindling attendances but that horse bolted long ago and the simple fact that two teams get record attendances basically drowns out any other aspect of why they should or shouldn’t be adopted by our sport. I’ve said this many times without any kind of response, which says it all to me that even us as speedway nuts cannot persuade close family and friends to attend so any amount of advertising will currently fall on deaf ears. People don’t like speedway. The ONLY hope -and I’m too old to grasp what it is - is that some zeitgeist person or event presents itself that a social media guru can use to create the fomo effect. I’ve seen it happen with say Prime drink, Ibiza Final Boss, 6/7 etc but I cannot get my head around it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontforgetthefueltapsbruv Posted January 9 Report Share Posted January 9 1 hour ago, ouch said: Even teams that knew they couldn’t win the league wanted to finish as high up as possible or beat the title chasing teams. This led to a consistent attendance. Now we are told that some fixtures are way more important than others, we naturally start to pick and choose. Play off finalist can make up some of the shortfall but others do not. The result for the sport as a whole is a nett loss. I think now as I did then that the play offs have had a lot to do with dwindling attendances but that horse bolted long ago and the simple fact that two teams get record attendances basically drowns out any other aspect of why they should or shouldn’t be adopted by our sport. A reasonable argument in general although I will throw in this as devil's advocate Surely rather than saying the success of the play offs is the problem instead we should be doing whatever required to make the 'standard' fixtures seem as attractive Easier said than done for sure but would it really be better to jettison a handful of 3-5,000 attendances so that all meetings hopefully got an extra 200 or so The ambition should be to still have those big meetings but manage to capture those extra hundreds anyway 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colsimmo58 Posted January 9 Report Share Posted January 9 Well the AGM,went down a storm.Lets get into the mind of a Prem Promoter, Promoter X. Promoter X has this idea, Lets start the season off with this extra competition. Lets have a fixtures list 'A', running from April and May.2 Home matches and 2 Away matches each That's 8 Home - 8 Away = 16 matches,Whoever finishes top of the fixtures wins, Lets call this comp The League Cup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colsimmo58 Posted January 9 Report Share Posted January 9 Well the AGM,went down a storm.Lets get into the mind of a Prem Promoter, Promoter X. Promoter X has this idea, Lets start the season off with this extra competition. Lets have a fixtures list 'A', running from April and May.2 Home matches and 2 Away matches each That's 8 Home - 8 Away = 16 matches,Whoever finishes top of the fixtures wins, Lets call this comp The League Cup. Now the month of June ,Lets have the KO CUP. July ,August and Sept,We can have Fixtures 'B' The Premiership, Each team has 3 home and 3 Away meetings That's 12 Home - 12 Away = 24 matches.Whoever finishes top goes directly to The Grand Final Teams 2nd and 3rd, a Semi Final,winner also through to the Grand Final,to be held in Oct. So, 1 team could have potentially ,25 Home matches during the season,WOW thats great for the Prem Supporters Also, lets get HARRY, who has done absolutely eff all for speedway to present the Prem Trophy and hand out the medals.Great idea. But hold on Prem Promoter X,we might have a 6th team, oh yeah, well that scuppers my suggestion, Lets do what we always do,Stick our heads in the sand and do eff nothing to promote Speedway going forward. What if we can look to 2027,The 5 teams in the Prem drop down to the Championship,The Champ promoters seem to know what the f*ck their doing. That sounds good,AGM over,lets go for a beer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
castrolargh Posted January 10 Report Share Posted January 10 20 hours ago, Colsimmo58 said: Well the AGM,went down a storm.Lets get into the mind of a Prem Promoter, Promoter X. Promoter X has this idea, Lets start the season off with this extra competition. Lets have a fixtures list 'A', running from April and May.2 Home matches and 2 Away matches each That's 8 Home - 8 Away = 16 matches,Whoever finishes top of the fixtures wins, Lets call this comp The League Cup. Now the month of June ,Lets have the KO CUP. July ,August and Sept,We can have Fixtures 'B' The Premiership, Each team has 3 home and 3 Away meetings That's 12 Home - 12 Away = 24 matches.Whoever finishes top goes directly to The Grand Final Teams 2nd and 3rd, a Semi Final,winner also through to the Grand Final,to be held in Oct. So, 1 team could have potentially ,25 Home matches during the season,WOW thats great for the Prem Supporters Also, lets get HARRY, who has done absolutely eff all for speedway to present the Prem Trophy and hand out the medals.Great idea. But hold on Prem Promoter X,we might have a 6th team, oh yeah, well that scuppers my suggestion, Lets do what we always do,Stick our heads in the sand and do eff nothing to promote Speedway going forward. What if we can look to 2027,The 5 teams in the Prem drop down to the Championship,The Champ promoters seem to know what the f*ck their doing. That sounds good,AGM over,lets go for a beer. You are right, the championship promoters do seem to have it right, at least a bit more right than the premiership. However. Without the premiership, the championship would not work. The championship uses many of the riders from the premiership, but as was reported in the star, at a massively reduced pay rate, so without premiership money it wouldn't work for the riders. The premiership has lost a handful of teams in recent seasons mainly due to losing their access to a track. No one from the championship wants to move up, as their business model would not work,either due to race nights, losing local derbies, extra costs etc. In addition to all this, next year Poland are prohibiting riders from racing in more than 1 extra league, meaning we probably lose most of the better danes we have , and potentially quite a few to Sweden,meaning less " top" riders in this country, making next years premiership potentially weaker , so it begs the question, what next? For the championship to work it needs the premiership for the premiership to work it needs riders, so if the premiership falls, so does the championship in its current form. Riders need to earn x amount of money so either the championship has to pay more or costs must be cut. British speedway needs more riders to fill its teams, so we need to rebuild.If that means a " lower" standard , so be it, likewise if it means 5 or 6 man teams , so be it. Let clubs race on their favoured night, we've already been done over by Poland, and other riders will ride in Denmark or Sweden, so early on this season there needs to be a rider census to get a rough idea as to how many riders would be available to fill all championship and premiership teams, riding on whichever night, and then work out team sizes and strengths from there, based on 2 leagues, one professional league, but with protected races for at least 1 or 2 " juniors", and the national development league ,with a clear progression between the leagues. Reduce engine servicing costs, ban trick parts, put a rev limiter on that will make a difference, maybe a minimum flywheel weight, do the consultation now, with a view to 2027, reassure the punters that genuine change is on the way,and rebuild from the bottom up. Now going to grab my tin hat and get behind the parapet waiting to be shot down 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted January 10 Report Share Posted January 10 3 minutes ago, castrolargh said: You are right, the championship promoters do seem to have it right, at least a bit more right than the premiership. However. Without the premiership, the championship would not work. The championship uses many of the riders from the premiership, but as was reported in the star, at a massively reduced pay rate, so without premiership money it wouldn't work for the riders. The premiership has lost a handful of teams in recent seasons mainly due to losing their access to a track. No one from the championship wants to move up, as their business model would not work,either due to race nights, losing local derbies, extra costs etc. In addition to all this, next year Poland are prohibiting riders from racing in more than 1 extra league, meaning we probably lose most of the better danes we have , and potentially quite a few to Sweden,meaning less " top" riders in this country, making next years premiership potentially weaker , so it begs the question, what next? For the championship to work it needs the premiership for the premiership to work it needs riders, so if the premiership falls, so does the championship in its current form. Riders need to earn x amount of money so either the championship has to pay more or costs must be cut. British speedway needs more riders to fill its teams, so we need to rebuild.If that means a " lower" standard , so be it, likewise if it means 5 or 6 man teams , so be it. Let clubs race on their favoured night, we've already been done over by Poland, and other riders will ride in Denmark or Sweden, so early on this season there needs to be a rider census to get a rough idea as to how many riders would be available to fill all championship and premiership teams, riding on whichever night, and then work out team sizes and strengths from there, based on 2 leagues, one professional league, but with protected races for at least 1 or 2 " juniors", and the national development league ,with a clear progression between the leagues. Reduce engine servicing costs, ban trick parts, put a rev limiter on that will make a difference, maybe a minimum flywheel weight, do the consultation now, with a view to 2027, reassure the punters that genuine change is on the way,and rebuild from the bottom up. Now going to grab my tin hat and get behind the parapet waiting to be shot down No tin hat needed, most people seem to realise this. Presuming that there is no TV deal any longer (TNT still shows as a broadcast partner on the British Speedway website, whether that just contractual or not who knows?) what exactly is the difference in the PL/CL operating models now? With the Polish restrictions coming into effect in season 2027, I wonder if anybody from the BSPL has reached out to the Swedish and Danish authorities, as they will both be in the same boat, to discuss some kind of collaboration to resist or counter these restrictions, a joining of forces to offer riders 3 leagues to ride in with guaranteed reduced money rather than the "gamble" of Poland. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted January 10 Report Share Posted January 10 (edited) 23 minutes ago, IainB said: No tin hat needed, most people seem to realise this. Presuming that there is no TV deal any longer (TNT still shows as a broadcast partner on the British Speedway website, whether that just contractual or not who knows?) what exactly is the difference in the PL/CL operating models now? With the Polish restrictions coming into effect in season 2027, I wonder if anybody from the BSPL has reached out to the Swedish and Danish authorities, as they will both be in the same boat, to discuss some kind of collaboration to resist or counter these restrictions, a joining of forces to offer riders 3 leagues to ride in with guaranteed reduced money rather than the "gamble" of Poland. A great opportunity for the "professional" clubs over here to join a "European League"... Riding on any night neither team have riders clashing with Poland, so Fri, Sat and Sun could get used, as and when, and the likes of Poole could join in on Wednesdays . And then the "hobbyists" over here could also then carry on with their own league.... Like Rugby Union have done with their "United Cup" competition, as none of those leagues by themselves could generate enough publicity and money, so several clubs from different nations compete against each other... Five or six rider teams could be used to help a spread of riders if needed.. A European League just may get some TV company, and some maimstream media interested and some bigger sponsors..? Edited January 10 by mikebv 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamish McRaker Posted January 10 Report Share Posted January 10 I have a cunning plan! The "A" and "B" fixtures are run as separate league tables. Each league table has a first v second playoff, with the two winners contesting a grand final Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phannan Posted January 10 Report Share Posted January 10 43 minutes ago, Hamish McRaker said: I have a cunning plan! The "A" and "B" fixtures are run as separate league tables. Each league table has a first v second playoff, with the two winners contesting a grand final Good idea but what if the same team wins both the leagues ? Then both leagues have different runners up . Who contests the grand final. The double league winners v ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ouch Posted January 10 Report Share Posted January 10 4 minutes ago, Phannan said: Good idea but what if the same team wins both the leagues ? Then both leagues have different runners up . Who contests the grand final. The double league winners v ??? More likely that one team runs away with both leagues then suffers injuries to key team members resulting in a loss in the grand final. We could then heap praise on the second placed team as being the best in the land and worthy winners. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YeOldPitGate Posted January 10 Report Share Posted January 10 4 hours ago, castrolargh said: You are right, the championship promoters do seem to have it right, at least a bit more right than the premiership. However. Without the premiership, the championship would not work. The championship uses many of the riders from the premiership, but as was reported in the star, at a massively reduced pay rate, so without premiership money it wouldn't work for the riders. The premiership has lost a handful of teams in recent seasons mainly due to losing their access to a track. No one from the championship wants to move up, as their business model would not work,either due to race nights, losing local derbies, extra costs etc. In addition to all this, next year Poland are prohibiting riders from racing in more than 1 extra league, meaning we probably lose most of the better danes we have , and potentially quite a few to Sweden,meaning less " top" riders in this country, making next years premiership potentially weaker , so it begs the question, what next? For the championship to work it needs the premiership for the premiership to work it needs riders, so if the premiership falls, so does the championship in its current form. Riders need to earn x amount of money so either the championship has to pay more or costs must be cut. British speedway needs more riders to fill its teams, so we need to rebuild.If that means a " lower" standard , so be it, likewise if it means 5 or 6 man teams , so be it. Let clubs race on their favoured night, we've already been done over by Poland, and other riders will ride in Denmark or Sweden, so early on this season there needs to be a rider census to get a rough idea as to how many riders would be available to fill all championship and premiership teams, riding on whichever night, and then work out team sizes and strengths from there, based on 2 leagues, one professional league, but with protected races for at least 1 or 2 " juniors", and the national development league ,with a clear progression between the leagues. Reduce engine servicing costs, ban trick parts, put a rev limiter on that will make a difference, maybe a minimum flywheel weight, do the consultation now, with a view to 2027, reassure the punters that genuine change is on the way,and rebuild from the bottom up. Now going to grab my tin hat and get behind the parapet waiting to be shot down Agreed with us now so far behind Poland if the one other league comes in most top riders will surely pick Denmark or Sweden due to logistics, Would there be merit in forming from whatever is left a top eight league of championship standard and then a championship lite league for another eight teams agreed it won't be pretty but I would imagine we must be down to 90% of the fans being the die hards now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YeOldPitGate Posted January 10 Report Share Posted January 10 48 minutes ago, Phannan said: Good idea but what if the same team wins both the leagues ? Then both leagues have different runners up . Who contests the grand final. The double league winners v ??? Now where talking two lots of play off's also to get the tills ringing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted January 10 Report Share Posted January 10 (edited) 14 minutes ago, YeOldPitGate said: Agreed with us now so far behind Poland if the one other league comes in most top riders will surely pick Denmark or Sweden due to logistics, Would there be merit in forming from whatever is left a top eight league of championship standard and then a championship lite league for another eight teams agreed it won't be pretty but I would imagine we must be down to 90% of the fans being the die hards now. Sweden last year had an average attendance of over 2700... Denmark appears to be "on the up"... So two leagues that could pay more maybe? You would have to presume any Swedes or Danes will stick with their own league, plus Poland, given their sponsors will invariably be linked to their home country . Any non Swedes and Danes eg Aussie's, will also go where the money is best you would think... Some major plans need to be made, and quickly, for 2027... Given GB, Denmark and Sweden will all be fighting for the same riders, and none of them have a big number of home riders of a "decent" level, to fill their own leagues individually, then one Euro league really could be the best for all... And would mean any Polish riders would ride in this one Euro league as their "other one"... Edited January 10 by mikebv 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamish McRaker Posted January 10 Report Share Posted January 10 1 hour ago, Phannan said: Good idea but what if the same team wins both the leagues ? Then both leagues have different runners up . Who contests the grand final. The double league winners v ??? Yes, the perfect way for this doomed lesgue to end by disappearing up it's own backside🤣 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phannan Posted January 10 Report Share Posted January 10 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Hamish McRaker said: Yes, the perfect way for this doomed lesgue to end by disappearing up it's own backside🤣 It was a more constructive idea than the clowns who run this sh*t show have ever made to spark some sort of life into it . Fancy a job at the top table ? 🙄 Edited January 10 by Phannan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YeOldPitGate Posted January 10 Report Share Posted January 10 (edited) 2 hours ago, mikebv said: Sweden last year had an average attendance of over 2700... Denmark appears to be "on the up"... So two leagues that could pay more maybe? You would have to presume any Swedes or Danes will stick with their own league, plus Poland, given their sponsors will invariably be linked to their home country . Any non Swedes and Danes eg Aussie's, will also go where the money is best you would think... Some major plans need to be made, and quickly, for 2027... Given GB, Denmark and Sweden will all be fighting for the same riders, and none of them have a big number of home riders of a "decent" level, to fill their own leagues individually, then one Euro league really could be the best for all... And would mean any Polish riders would ride in this one Euro league as their "other one"... The words "plan quickly" Mike not something you will associated with British Speedway the go to is "react at the absolute last minute" Edited January 10 by YeOldPitGate spelling misttake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted January 10 Report Share Posted January 10 Just now, YeOldPitGate said: The words "plan quickly" Mike not something you will associated with British Speedway the go to is "react at the absolute last minute" "After the last minute" now and again too.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.D Posted January 10 Report Share Posted January 10 7 minutes ago, YeOldPitGate said: The words "plan quickly" Mike not something you will associated with British Speedway the go to is "react at the absolute last minute" That's the problem, they are reactive not proactive. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamish McRaker Posted January 10 Report Share Posted January 10 3 hours ago, mikebv said: Sweden last year had an average attendance of over 2700... Denmark appears to be "on the up"... So two leagues that could pay more maybe? You would have to presume any Swedes or Danes will stick with their own league, plus Poland, given their sponsors will invariably be linked to their home country . Any non Swedes and Danes eg Aussie's, will also go where the money is best you would think... Some major plans need to be made, and quickly, for 2027... Given GB, Denmark and Sweden will all be fighting for the same riders, and none of them have a big number of home riders of a "decent" level, to fill their own leagues individually, then one Euro league really could be the best for all... And would mean any Polish riders would ride in this one Euro league as their "other one"... Could have a league consisting of three "Conferences" with "double-acrossing" allowed eg. UK,Sweden, Denmark. Then concoct some sort of fudged low level playoff to decide on an overall winner whilst still having three Conference champions and Bob's your uncle, you've got one league and "up yours Poland" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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