JamesB Posted Tuesday at 12:14 PM Report Share Posted Tuesday at 12:14 PM I have counted 14 riders (including R/S’s) in declared Premiership line ups who will be doubling up/down in 2026. There are still 14 Premiership places to be filled, so a good few still to be added. Even more if the sixth team materialises. How can speedway in this country cope without doubling up/down? Also, how could one league work if another 15/20 riders had to be found? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racin Jason 72 Posted Tuesday at 12:14 PM Report Share Posted Tuesday at 12:14 PM Years ago when you became a number one at division two you would move up into the top division and become a number 7 at your new club imo when the promoters changed the natural progression ladder it all went downhill. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phannan Posted Tuesday at 12:35 PM Report Share Posted Tuesday at 12:35 PM (edited) 34 minutes ago, ouch said: If doubling down was allowed in the 70’s & 80’s then riders would have done it. It wasn’t allowed so they attached their bike to the back of a Citroen and worked part time when not riding. There is no benefit for top league clubs to have their riders doubling down but the lower division benefits greatly and they have more votes at the AGM and thus it came to pass. Short term gain for long term pain, well done guys. Those were the days. The riders in your team were yours to cheer on only. Like any sensible sport. Bomber would have been knackered back then. If someone was injured a squad member or junior stepped in more often than not. Or rider replacement. Guesting wasn’t the free for all like it is these days . They certainly didn’t ride for 2 different teams. Edited Tuesday at 12:42 PM by Phannan 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted Tuesday at 01:00 PM Report Share Posted Tuesday at 01:00 PM 13 minutes ago, Phannan said: Those were the days. The riders in your team were yours to cheer on only. Like any sensible sport. Bomber would have been knackered back then. If someone was injured a squad member or junior stepped in more often than not. Or rider replacement. Guesting wasn’t the free for all like it is these days . They certainly didn’t ride for 2 different teams. 198 Guests used last season across both top leagues.. When other leagues can cope without a single one, it shows just how poorly the UK version of exactly the same sport, with access to exactly the same riders, is ran... No excuse for such nonsense is there? A "necessary evil" I believe it is said to be....? Using 198 of them suggests its more of an easy cop out, rather than running a team sport properly to ensure you deliver the required emotional attachment to your team.. And if you don't engender that in a team sport, especially in the digital 24/7 news, and the constant social media review, and potential ridicule, of what you deliver today, then you have no chance of being successful... 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phannan Posted Tuesday at 01:15 PM Report Share Posted Tuesday at 01:15 PM 6 minutes ago, mikebv said: 198 Guests used last season across both top leagues.. When other leagues can cope without a single one, it shows just how poorly the UK version of exactly the same sport, with access to exactly the same riders, is ran... No excuse for such nonsense is there? A "necessary evil" I believe it is said to be....? Using 198 of them suggests its more of an easy cop out, rather than running a team sport properly to ensure you deliver the required emotional attachment to your team.. And if you don't engender that in a team sport, especially in the digital 24/7 news, and the constant social media review, and potential ridicule, of what you deliver today, then you have no chance of being successful... I remember the back of the star always had a team on it with the captain labelled as ‘ on machine’ . That was your team with your riders.You were attached to them. Nowadays it’s a free for all . A pay day for the rider. That rider could be doing his own team damage by winning with his guested team. Just dosent add up in a professional sport. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ouch Posted Tuesday at 02:07 PM Report Share Posted Tuesday at 02:07 PM 1 hour ago, mikebv said: 198 Guests used last season across both top leagues.. When other leagues can cope without a single one, it shows just how poorly the UK version of exactly the same sport, with access to exactly the same riders, is ran... No excuse for such nonsense is there? A "necessary evil" I believe it is said to be....? Using 198 of them suggests its more of an easy cop out, rather than running a team sport properly to ensure you deliver the required emotional attachment to your team.. And if you don't engender that in a team sport, especially in the digital 24/7 news, and the constant social media review, and potential ridicule, of what you deliver today, then you have no chance of being successful... The necessary evil was an often touted phrase back in the day but that went out of the window when the rulebook demanded a guest for a missing number six and after 75% of your fixtures you cannot replace a seventh member if injured, it has to be RR or guest. Unnecessary. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Smith Posted Tuesday at 02:57 PM Report Share Posted Tuesday at 02:57 PM Right, I'm still not getting what the problem is with doubling up/down? Someone, actually explain please??? As long as they're not missing through fixture clashes, what's the problem? If averages fit, what's the problem? If a promotion wants them, what's the problem? I do not get the issue AT ALL. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Jacobs Posted Tuesday at 03:21 PM Report Share Posted Tuesday at 03:21 PM 16 minutes ago, Daniel Smith said: Right, I'm still not getting what the problem is with doubling up/down? Someone, actually explain please??? As long as they're not missing through fixture clashes, what's the problem? If averages fit, what's the problem? If a promotion wants them, what's the problem? I do not get the issue AT ALL. Doubling-Up was originally set up to allow young brits to gain experience in the higher division/league, while still riding regularly in the lower division/league. That is great as a principle, but it was allowed to get out of control, so that any rider (depending on converted average when doubling-down) could race regularly in both divisions/leagues - so much so that there have even been accusations of senior riders dropping their top division/league average so they they qualified to double-up. If you can't see a problem with any of that, then fair enough - as always, we makes our choices. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phannan Posted Tuesday at 03:27 PM Report Share Posted Tuesday at 03:27 PM 24 minutes ago, Daniel Smith said: Right, I'm still not getting what the problem is with doubling up/down? Someone, actually explain please??? As long as they're not missing through fixture clashes, what's the problem? If averages fit, what's the problem? If a promotion wants them, what's the problem? I do not get the issue AT ALL. As a professional team sport it’s all wrong signing for two teams while also guesting for other ones. Just dosent look right in my opinion. Imagine Phil foden playing for Man City on a weekend, then playing for Stockport on a Wednesday. Different sport I know, but professional so on the same lines . 25 minutes ago, Daniel Smith said: Right, I'm still not getting what the problem is with doubling up/down? Someone, actually explain please??? As long as they're not missing through fixture clashes, what's the problem? If averages fit, what's the problem? If a promotion wants them, what's the problem? I do not get the issue AT ALL. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YeOldPitGate Posted Tuesday at 03:32 PM Report Share Posted Tuesday at 03:32 PM 3 hours ago, Racin Jason 72 said: Years ago when you became a number one at division two you would move up into the top division and become a number 7 at your new club imo when the promoters changed the natural progression ladder it all went downhill. Agreed I can remember I think it was Joe Owen who an 11 point man in the old national league being called on by the british league and he struggled at reserve in the top league the gulf back then between top men in division2 and 1 was massive when the likes of Havvy and Andrew Silver moved up it took them a while to get established and they were both super naturally talented riders. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted Tuesday at 04:08 PM Report Share Posted Tuesday at 04:08 PM (edited) 3 hours ago, YeOldPitGate said: Agreed I can remember I think it was Joe Owen who an 11 point man in the old national league being called on by the british league and he struggled at reserve in the top league the gulf back then between top men in division2 and 1 was massive when the likes of Havvy and Andrew Silver moved up it took them a while to get established and they were both super naturally talented riders. Even riders like Tom Owen and John Jackson were never quite able to bridge the gap between the two leagues.. Hence, they became renowned as "stalwarts" of the NNL.. However, giving the young UK lads the chance to move up with an assurance of still keeping their 2nd tier role, should they not survive at the highest level (in the world at that time), was a sensible idea.. Doubling Down was the biggest problem as it meant established top tier riders dropped down.. Meaning fixed race nights were a must... And spaces that should have been used for development were taken by established riders.. I presume for those riders and promoters it was a win/win given the 2nd tier got HL's subsidised by the top tier, and the top tier promoters got HL's and SS's subsidised by the promoters of the second tier.. With the riders benefitting from both the most.. Unfortunately it has meant any injury to a DU results in two Guests to replace them the next meeting for both his clubs in the two divisions, and two more Guests each time if he doesn't return for several weeks, and, as they could be racing Mon, Wed, Thu, Fri and Sat in the UK alone, it has meant Guest numbers have become out of control, as there simply often is not enough time for them to recuperate before they are needed again.. Also, given the age of most of the 2nd tier HL's who double up, there is a huge hole approaching in the not too distsnt future to be filled when they finish their careers... Edited Tuesday at 07:25 PM by mikebv 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Smith Posted Tuesday at 04:19 PM Report Share Posted Tuesday at 04:19 PM 49 minutes ago, Roger Jacobs said: Doubling-Up was originally set up to allow young brits to gain experience in the higher division/league, while still riding regularly in the lower division/league. That is great as a principle, but it was allowed to get out of control, so that any rider (depending on converted average when doubling-down) could race regularly in both divisions/leagues - so much so that there have even been accusations of senior riders dropping their top division/league average so they they qualified to double-up. If you can't see a problem with any of that, then fair enough - as always, we makes our choices. 42 minutes ago, Phannan said: As a professional team sport it’s all wrong signing for two teams while also guesting for other ones. Just dosent look right in my opinion. Imagine Phil foden playing for Man City on a weekend, then playing for Stockport on a Wednesday. Different sport I know, but professional so on the same lines . Terrific, but still, what is the actual problem with doubling up/down?? What damage is caused by, lets say, rider Anaz Shtinks from riding for King's Lynn & Scunthorpe, compared to King's Lynn & Lublin?? What's the difference to British Speedway overall?? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aries Posted Tuesday at 05:15 PM Report Share Posted Tuesday at 05:15 PM 49 minutes ago, Daniel Smith said: Terrific, but still, what is the actual problem with doubling up/down?? What damage is caused by, lets say, rider Anaz Shtinks from riding for King's Lynn & Scunthorpe, compared to King's Lynn & Lublin?? What's the difference to British Speedway overall?? I’m with you here I’ve never understood the issue either! Why does it matter if Harris rides for a different club, in a different league, and against totally different opposition? How does that affect Kings Lynn in a totally different league? The answer is it doesn’t. It’s far worse to have Premiership riders, guesting for a different Premiership team against teams that are in the same division as you! Having one of your team helping out a rival whom you’re competing against and potentially helping them gain a play off place at your expense, has always seemed bonkers to me and far more damaging to the Sports credibility. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowboy cookie returns? Posted Tuesday at 05:16 PM Report Share Posted Tuesday at 05:16 PM 4 hours ago, Phannan said: Those were the days. The riders in your team were yours to cheer on only. Like any sensible sport. Bomber would have been knackered back then. If someone was injured a squad member or junior stepped in more often than not. Or rider replacement. Guesting wasn’t the free for all like it is these days . They certainly didn’t ride for 2 different teams. I remember the old National league having an outright ban on guests. You used your own junior's or RR to cover injuries but if RR you had to name a number 8. However there was a certain amount of doubling up certainly in the mid 80s Carl Blackbird rode for Mildenhall in the NL & Ipswich in the BL Richard Knight rose for Mildenhall & Wimbledon & Nigel Flatman spent many years riding for both Ipswich & Peterborough. Granted none of the above was a full on as today. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YeOldPitGate Posted Tuesday at 05:37 PM Report Share Posted Tuesday at 05:37 PM 1 hour ago, mikebv said: Even riders like Tom Owns and John Jackson were never quite able to bridge the gap between the two leagues.. Hence, they became renowned as "stalwarts" of the NNL.. However, giving the young UK lads the chance to move up with an assurance of still keeping their 2nd tier role, should they not survive at the highest level (in the world at that time), was a sensible idea.. Doubling Down was the biggest problem as it meant established top tier riders dropped down.. Meaning fixed race nights were a must... And spaces that should have been used for development were taken by established riders.. I presume for those riders and promoters it was a win/win given the 2nd tier got HL's subsidised by the top tier, and the top tier promoters got HL's and SS's subsidised by the promoters of the second tier.. With the riders benefitting from both the most.. Unfortunately it has meant any injury to a DU results in two Guests to replace them the next meeting for both his clubs in the two divisions, and two more Guests each time if he doesn't return for several weeks, and, as they could be racing Mon, Wed, Thu, Fri and Sat in the UK alone, it has meant Guest numbers have become out of control, as there simply often is not enough time for them to recuperate before they are needed again.. Also, given the age of most of the 2nd tier HL's who double up, there is a huge hole approaching in the not too distsnt future to be filled when they finish their careers... Probably started with Simmo , Jens Rasmussen and was it dear old Peter Shroek ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YeOldPitGate Posted Tuesday at 05:38 PM Report Share Posted Tuesday at 05:38 PM 1 hour ago, mikebv said: Even riders like Tom Owns and John Jackson were never quite able to bridge the gap between the two leagues.. Hence, they became renowned as "stalwarts" of the NNL.. However, giving the young UK lads the chance to move up with an assurance of still keeping their 2nd tier role, should they not survive at the highest level (in the world at that time), was a sensible idea.. Doubling Down was the biggest problem as it meant established top tier riders dropped down.. Meaning fixed race nights were a must... And spaces that should have been used for development were taken by established riders.. I presume for those riders and promoters it was a win/win given the 2nd tier got HL's subsidised by the top tier, and the top tier promoters got HL's and SS's subsidised by the promoters of the second tier.. With the riders benefitting from both the most.. Unfortunately it has meant any injury to a DU results in two Guests to replace them the next meeting for both his clubs in the two divisions, and two more Guests each time if he doesn't return for several weeks, and, as they could be racing Mon, Wed, Thu, Fri and Sat in the UK alone, it has meant Guest numbers have become out of control, as there simply often is not enough time for them to recuperate before they are needed again.. Also, given the age of most of the 2nd tier HL's who double up, there is a huge hole approaching in the not too distsnt future to be filled when they finish their careers... It is sadly one of many more holes fast approaching Mike along with all the existing one's that are just patched over. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Smith Posted Tuesday at 06:14 PM Report Share Posted Tuesday at 06:14 PM 23 minutes ago, Aries said: I’m with you here I’ve never understood the issue either! Why does it matter if Harris rides for a different club, in a different league, and against totally different opposition? How does that affect Kings Lynn in a totally different league? The answer is it doesn’t. It’s far worse to have Premiership riders, guesting for a different Premiership team against teams that are in the same division as you! Having one of your team helping out a rival whom you’re competing against and potentially helping them gain a play off place at your expense, has always seemed bonkers to me and far more damaging to the Sports credibility. Exactly that. Guests are the 'necessary evil' of the sport. Immediate change for me is that a guest can only be from other league/s. Even if you lose the No1, the guest comes in on their own converted average and those with a higher average move up a position. For me, it's not a difficult fix. Also, that would hurry up teams to find replacements (temporary or permanent) rather than constantly using 'track specialists' guests. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pitch Posted Tuesday at 06:24 PM Report Share Posted Tuesday at 06:24 PM 6 hours ago, JamesB said: I have counted 14 riders (including R/S’s) in declared Premiership line ups who will be doubling up/down in 2026. There are still 14 Premiership places to be filled, so a good few still to be added. Even more if the sixth team materialises. How can speedway in this country cope without doubling up/down? Also, how could one league work if another 15/20 riders had to be found? Lots of the young Aussies interviewed by BSN during the Australian Championship last week said that they wanted to come over to the uk. Actually saying "call me" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted Tuesday at 06:40 PM Report Share Posted Tuesday at 06:40 PM 52 minutes ago, YeOldPitGate said: It is sadly one of many more holes fast approaching Mike along with all the existing one's that are just patched over. Development needs to go into overdrive from this season, never mind 2027, to cover the potential impact Poland may have with their "one extra league" rules, and the amount of DU's who are much nearer the ends of their careers than the start... I remember the SJL with, I think, three rider teams racing over six heats. . Maybe after every four heats of every meeting they could run two heats of this level of racing? Four heats, then two heats of NDL level riders, then the track grade for the main meeting to carry on... The NDL level meeting would be completed after heat 12, and running them every four heats would mean the track had slickened off, but still would have some grip, rather than them racing on a fresh, grippy track which may test their capability, or a track, post main meeting, bereft of any grip at all.. Extra races for the punters too, and it may unearth an "I was there" gem... It would be very much an expenses only opportunity for the riders... The clubs have all said they are committed to development, well, they ALL need to show it, rather than only a few doing anything.. The 8% reduction per year missed could bring some riders back, however the hole needing to be filled over the next few seasons isn't going to be small.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Preston Comet Posted Tuesday at 06:47 PM Report Share Posted Tuesday at 06:47 PM More pit space needed then Mike, and not always available Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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