1970's or 2020's?

[Hamish McRaker]

I've put this onto the Premiership section because i've given up trying to get my tech to get into a general speedway discussions area! It applies to Championship level as well.

In the 1970's there were riders galore with averages over 9 points. Plenty over 10 and a small but significant contingent over 11.

Maximums or nearly by Mauger, Olsen, Crump, Collins, Lee, Louis, Simmons etc were commonplace. Ah, those were the days! Or were they??

Today, more or less anybody can and does beat the "top dogs". No more dominance, at least at the Mauger and Olsen level. I'm sure the race format and gate position changes will have played a big part in this.

So what's better? Domination by an elite group or riders, or greater unpredictability?

[RoundTheBoards]

22 minutes ago, Hamish McRaker said:

I've put this onto the Premiership section because i've given up trying to get my tech to get into a general speedway discussions area! It applies to Championship level as well.

In the 1970's there were riders galore with averages over 9 points. Plenty over 10 and a small but significant contingent over 11.

Maximums or nearly by Mauger, Olsen, Crump, Collins, Lee, Louis, Simmons etc were commonplace. Ah, those were the days! Or were they??

Today, more or less anybody can and does beat the "top dogs". No more dominance, at least at the Mauger and Olsen level. I'm sure the race format and gate position changes will have played a big part in this.

So what's better? Domination by an elite group or riders, or greater unpredictability?

Back in those days, bonus points were included in the Green Sheet Averages.   This made a huge difference to averages.  (remember there are on average 10 extra bonus points in a 15 heat match).

Also then, matches were 13 heats so the top riders likely met only once in a meeting.  Nowadays with 15 heats including a nominated, top riders will meet at least twice.  And with the 4 top riders all meeting in heat 15, someone is going to finish with a zero and take a big dent on their average.   In the 70s, a top rider would go into every race with a reasonable expectataion of finishing second at worst.

Also back then, leagues had 16 - 18 teams.  They met only once all year.  Nowadays with fewer teams and fewer riders, teams meet more often, so top riders clash more often. 

If was also quite common to turn up on a Saturday night in the 70s to find Peter Collins isn't riding tonight or Ivan Mauger isn't riding, because they had a lucrative Grasstrack meeting in Germany on Sunday afternoon.    So riders might even miss their only league head-to-head of the entire season.  (with no internet. no one knew they were missing until they'd paid their money, and no one seemed bothered).

With just one bike strapped to the back of a car, no lower end rider had the equipment to challenge a top rider who may have a workshop at the track.

If you want closer racing with a more level playing field, and riders meeting more often, then the current day is for you.

If you want a few top stars for publicity purposes with the top stars artificially inflated to appear more dominant than they are, then the 70s are for you.

 

 

[cowboy cookie returns?]

No idea the 70s were before my time.

To be honest dispite the likes of Rickardsson, Gollob & more recently Doyle & Emil my favourite era at Ipswich was 89/90 in the National League.

Plenty of teams & characters the sport just seemed more fun. Even though my all time favourite is the Cowboy.

[RoundTheBoards]

Just now, cowboy cookie returns? said:

No idea the 70s were before my time.

To be honest dispite the likes of Rickardsson, Gollob & more recently Doyle & Emil my favourite era at Ipswich was 89/90 in the National League.

Plenty of teams & characters the sport just seemed more fun. Even though my all time favourite is the Cowboy.

My favourite era was the 70s.   Crowds were big and the atmosphere due to the big crowds was incredible, even for run-of-the-mill, very ordinary, bottom of the table matches.

The racing is far better now than in was then.  But today's racing in front of 800 people just can't match the atmosphere of a league meeting in front of 8,000.

[Whitelinehugger]

8 minutes ago, RoundTheBoards said:

My favourite era was the 70s.   Crowds were big and the atmosphere due to the big crowds was incredible, even for run-of-the-mill, very ordinary, bottom of the table matches.

The racing is far better now than in was then.  But today's racing in front of 800 people just can't match the atmosphere of a league meeting in front of 8,000.

Poland are experiencing crowds and fun times like we did in that period

[The White Knight]

3 hours ago, Hamish McRaker said:

I've put this onto the Premiership section because i've given up trying to get my tech to get into a general speedway discussions area! It applies to Championship level as well.

In the 1970's there were riders galore with averages over 9 points. Plenty over 10 and a small but significant contingent over 11.

Maximums or nearly by Mauger, Olsen, Crump, Collins, Lee, Louis, Simmons etc were commonplace. Ah, those were the days! Or were they??

Today, more or less anybody can and does beat the "top dogs". No more dominance, at least at the Mauger and Olsen level. I'm sure the race format and gate position changes will have played a big part in this.

So what's better? Domination by an elite group or riders, or greater unpredictability?

I would take the 70's every time.

Atmosphere, Characters (where are they now), Upright Engines (not the rocket bikes they have now), no Grand Prix (where is that going, I wonder?) Second Halves, where we saw a lot of the future young stars coming through (Gone).

Who is there today, British Riders, who can compare to Simmons, Collins, Jessop, Louis and Lee.

The Sport had twice the Entertainment/Excitement than it does nowadays.

I sincerely hope that Speedway in this Country can resurrect itself in to the Magnificent Sport that it used to be

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

No fixed gate positions in the 70s either and the top boys often pulled rank to get the best ones further cementing their dominance

[ouch]

It was still very raw back in the 70’s with only Ivan getting scientific about things. Even top lads would stick a bike on the bike of a Citroen with bits on the back seat. You could chat away for ages with your hero’s and a big crowd made even the most mundane meeting an event. I do believe that with the difference in remuneration top riders will “coast” if they don’t make the gate on our notoriously gate’n’go circuits. Exception to this is Dan who just loves to ride his bike and goes for it all the time, showing it can be done with a little desire and application. Back in the 70’s the big bucks were here and you would get an almighty bollocking if you were to coast, much like Poland now. The fact there are no characters can make for a bland evening and of course nostalgia colours our recollection of events from 50+ years ago when (generally) we were all in a happier place. PC was my hero and I can still get tongue tied when chatting with him now whereas Dan is a mate but still provides the level of excitement in me that PC did all those years ago. The on track action can be as good if not better than back then but off track it’s lacking somewhat. 

[mikebv]

70's racing was no better, nor worse than today's, for me..

What made it stand out was the crowd sizes thus, the atmosphere got created that made you return..

BV's Yorkshire rivals would bring a good few coaches with them ran by their supporters clubs, whiich had several thousand members, meaning an "electric atmosphere"...

Almost 20 teams in the league meant there actually looked line something worth winning, and the vast majority of riders were yours and no one elses, (apart from young UK lads being allowed to double up for development, rather than due to a lack of riders, or tier two clubs wanting to use tier one riders at a reduced rate)..

Teams rode on their best nights for attendances, and the admission costs took up a far lower percentage of your disposable income after your bills are paid, than it does today..

And Guests were the exception, rather than the rule...

The Superstars were on TV most Saturdays, and also crossed over into mainstream non sporting programming...

The top lads rode massive averages, making them "box office" particularly away from home when you may only got to see them once...

Their averages often being down to them picking the best gates, bonus points being included, a "gimme" tac sub ride against the weakest second string and reserve, and less "head to heads" than today against the oppositions top two, and, usually, especially at home, just four rides....

It was though, overall, the size of crowds that brought the atmosphere and made it "an event"...

The promoters of today though still have thousands of "lapsed fans" who still closely follow the sport, but see no reason to attend UK League Speedway...

A huge opportunity should the promoters ever one day decide to get these thousands of fans re-engaged with their version of the sport...

[RoundTheBoards]

19 hours ago, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said:

No fixed gate positions in the 70s either and the top boys often pulled rank to get the best ones further cementing their dominance

A good point that I missed in my summary of why 70s top riders had higher averages.

You hear stories of so-and-so being a top rider and always letting his junior partner have gate choice.  Those were a rarity (if they existed at all).  99% of the time, the top rider had the best gate.  And with no need to sit still at the starts, the referee would often allow the superstar to get a flyer.

[The White Knight]

I don't want to get controversial - but I will.

I think a big part of Speedway's problems started with the Laydown Engines, and the 4-Valve bikes used in the 70's. It started the free for all with the Engine Tuners. Spiralling costs due to Engine Tuning etc. contributed to increasing the price at the gate, thus taking the Sport out of reach of very many people. Costs became prohibitive crowds grew smaller and smaller. This is where we find ourselves now.

There is no doubt in my mind that the old 2-Valve was cheaper to run, safer for the riders, and no real advancement has been shown on the Track. The 2-Valve may have been fractions slower but, what we gained in speed, we also gained in injuries. Tracks built for Speedway nowadays can't cope with the the new 'rocket ships' that riders are using at the moment, hence the big increase in injuries.

Tracks haven't changed much since 1928 - but the bikes have. THAT to me is a problem also.

I don't believe that the GP System has done British Speedway any good either. Personally, I much preferred the old 'one off' World Final.

[Racin Jason 72]

23 hours ago, cowboy cookie returns? said:

No idea the 70s were before my time.

To be honest dispite the likes of Rickardsson, Gollob & more recently Doyle & Emil my favourite era at Ipswich was 89/90 in the National League.

Plenty of teams & characters the sport just seemed more fun. Even though my all time favourite is the Cowboy.

My favourite season was 1990 too. Chris Louis Alan mogridge dean standing Shane parker and David Norris provided brilliant entertainment home and away. Young hungry riders going places.  Although Dean standing didn’t fulfill his promise he was an incredibly stylish rider who should and could have had a long career in the sport. 

[mikebv]

6 minutes ago, The White Knight said:

I don't want to get controversial - but I will.

I think a big part of Speedway's problems started with the Laydown Engines, and the 4-Valve bikes used in the 70's. It started the free for all with the Engine Tuners. Spiralling costs due to Engine Tuning etc. contributed to increasing the price at the gate, thus taking the Sport out of reach of very many people. Costs became prohibitive crowds grew smaller and smaller. This is where we find ourselves now.

There is no doubt in my mind that the old 2-Valve was cheaper to run, safer for the riders, and no real advancement has been shown on the Track. The 2-Valve may have been fractions slower but, what we gained in speed, we also gained in injuries. Tracks built for Speedway nowadays can't cope with the the new 'rocket ships' that riders are using at the moment, hence the big increase in injuries.

Tracks haven't changed much since 1928 - but the bikes have. THAT to me is a problem also.

I don't believe that the GP System has done British Speedway any good either. Personally, I much preferred the old 'one off' World Final.

All fair points, however....

The ultimate issue over the last two decades in particular has been the lack of a joined up development plan for UK riders...

That has resulted in almost 200 guests being used per season, restricted race nights so riders can double up, resulting in contrived competitions with little credibility, and with hardly any rewards...

To unpick all the self inflicted issues, and gain back all those fans who have left the sport behind is, I would say, sadly beyond achievable now...

Even if those running the sport over here had the skill set to do it...

[ouch]

Mike, we had loads of guests back in the heyday as the excellent Speedway Researcher will testify. The percentage was lower as we had way more fixtures back then. Teams did ride on their preferred racenight but they do now. Sheffield & Ipswich did/do run on a Thursday. Northampton are new, Kings Lynn changed from the weekend but Leicester moved from a Tuesday! Belle Vue needed to change as there is now such competition for a Saturday night in Manchester that speedway would always lose out. Most of the top league teams we have lost has been due to planners/developers and not the race nights or competition value. If I’m being honest I see little difference in the credibility and reward in winning stuff now and back then. One of the big “rewards” was when Dave Lanning took out an insurance policy on the Racers winning the league and when they did, it was duly paid out. This was more a publicity stunt which we do not get now as promoters are not in the same mould as Lanning, Mawdsley, Thomas & Berry, sadly. 

Back then there were meetings like the Golden Apple or Warburtons Trophy that had no consequences or rewards but were dam fine meetings as there was thousands there. Halifax always won the Warburtons trophy against us (usually on a last heat decider) as it was good for their business, no matter how contrived. Promoters realised back then that we were a sports entertainment business where’s now they just think we are a proper sport. 

Doubling up/down is a mess - no question. That is a result of a lack of investment in the next generation and the fact it is way more expensive to throw your leg over a bike than back then. 

[mikebv]

54 minutes ago, ouch said:

Mike, we had loads of guests back in the heyday as the excellent Speedway Researcher will testify. The percentage was lower as we had way more fixtures back then. Teams did ride on their preferred racenight but they do now. Sheffield & Ipswich did/do run on a Thursday. Northampton are new, Kings Lynn changed from the weekend but Leicester moved from a Tuesday! Belle Vue needed to change as there is now such competition for a Saturday night in Manchester that speedway would always lose out. Most of the top league teams we have lost has been due to planners/developers and not the race nights or competition value. If I’m being honest I see little difference in the credibility and reward in winning stuff now and back then. One of the big “rewards” was when Dave Lanning took out an insurance policy on the Racers winning the league and when they did, it was duly paid out. This was more a publicity stunt which we do not get now as promoters are not in the same mould as Lanning, Mawdsley, Thomas & Berry, sadly. 

Back then there were meetings like the Golden Apple or Warburtons Trophy that had no consequences or rewards but were dam fine meetings as there was thousands there. Halifax always won the Warburtons trophy against us (usually on a last heat decider) as it was good for their business, no matter how contrived. Promoters realised back then that we were a sports entertainment business where’s now they just think we are a proper sport. 

Doubling up/down is a mess - no question. That is a result of a lack of investment in the next generation and the fact it is way more expensive to throw your leg over a bike than back then. 

In the 70's the sport piggy backed off the England team doing well on World of Sport, at a time when the football and cricket teams were crap..

A good news story...

The domestic sport has always been a bit "Mickey Mouse" however the money was good due to attendance numbers...

In a recent Speedway Star it covered Kenny Carter winning the 1979 British Junior Championship and for that, he got £2000. (Over £13k today)..

So individual meetings carried some big prizes eg the Grand Prix at White City was £5k and the Internationale at Wimbledon a Jawa bike...

In 1978, PC, in his book, said when he got banned for a month, for arriving late from Los Angeles and missing a meeting due to a plane cancellation, it cost him over £20k including his Long Track money...

What you could get away with in the 70's you cannot get away with now, and the Mickey Mouse circa 200 guests per season, (with just 15 teams in total), is ludicrous, (but condoned by those who attend regularly), and doubling up is now, just like guesting, a necessity. (Only in the UK though)...

The promoters of today are, in the main, hobbyists, who are quite happy to lose money that they can afford to lose, hence becoming a bona fide team sport simply isn't going to happen, therefore the sharing riders operating model is all we have..

If Poland ever decided to run with the UK's operating model their sport would go bust overnight...

Fans, Sponsors, and TV would simply walk away...

As Richard Coleman said in the Speedway Star this week...

It has about five years to sort itself out...

Edited 2 hours ago by mikebv

[Whitelinehugger]

1 minute ago, mikebv said:

In the 70's the sport piggy backed off the England team doing well on World of Sport, at a time when the football and cricket teams were crap..

A good news story...

The domestic sport has always been a bit "Mickey Mouse" however the money was good due to attendance numbers...

In a recent Speedway Star it covered Kenny Carter winning the 1979 British Junior Championship and for that, he got £2000. (Over £13k today)..

So individual meetings carried some big prizes eg the Grand Prix at White City was £5k and the Internationale at Wimbledon a Jawa bike...

In 1978, PC, in his book, said when he got banned for a month, for arriving late from Los Angeles and missing a meeting due to a plane cancellation, it cost him over £20k including his Long Track money...

What you could get away with in the 70's you cannot get away with now, and the Mickey Mouse circa 200 guests per season, (with just 15 teams in total), is ludicrous, (but condoned by those who attend regularly), and doubling up is now, just like guesting, a necessity. (Only in the UK though)...

The promoters of today are, in the main, hobbyists, who are quite happy to lose money that they can afford to lose, hence becoming a bona fide team sport simply isn't going to happen, therefore the sharing riders operating model is all we have..

If Poland ever decided to run with the UK's operating model their sport would go bust overnight...

Fans, Sponsors, and TV would simply walk away...

As Richard Ceman said in the Speedway Star this week...

It has about five years to sort itself out...

It will be dead and buried before then.

[mikebv]

Just now, Whitelinehugger said:

It will be dead and buried before then.

I thought it was a tad optimistic given how much fundamentally is needed to unpick...

And. If Poland decrees one extra league only to race in...

Which I can see their rationale given how many riders they lose riding elsewhere...

Then next season will see some huge drop in levels..

[IainB]

5 minutes ago, mikebv said:

I thought it was a tad optimistic given how much fundamentally is needed to unpick...

And. If Poland decrees one extra league only to race in...

Which I can see their rationale given how many riders they lose riding elsewhere...

Then next season will see some huge drop in levels..

Poland really need to break the model and make their riders employees, it's the only thing missing from their business model and the day that happens all other professional leagues become amateur. 

[M.D]

1 hour ago, IainB said:

Poland really need to break the model and make their riders employees, it's the only thing missing from their business model and the day that happens all other professional leagues become amateur. 

Never thought of that, but would it be such a bad thing?

Poland would employ riders, some would be on a wage and not ride. 

Would riders be happy with that, most want to ride and yes get paid well, would they just be happy practising and not riding competivly?

As for the UK, we could structure a new league with the same riders we have, guys like Rushan would learn a trade over here then move to Poland.

Not what we would want to see but would it end up with a business model that could keep the sport going in this country?

[mikebv]

1 hour ago, IainB said:

Poland really need to break the model and make their riders employees, it's the only thing missing from their business model and the day that happens all other professional leagues become amateur. 

Which is exactly what  a sport with non league football crowd lnumbers warrants..

And I don't mean the Conference but lower non league...

My lad plays North West Counties and can play on front of crowds from 500 to 1500...

Sweden may get "enough" and do have a decent league sponsor...

And. Denmark have made a full on attempt this season to grow Danish Speedway, and it will be interesting to see what league the Polish riders choose to race in next year as their "other league", Sweden or Denmark...

Should the Poles decide that this is the way the sport is allowed to go...