Premiership 2027 - Are You Interested??

[mikebv]

1 hour ago, ouch said:

I’d never claim Brady to be one of our own in the same way as Dan but we should be looking for more riders to move from 7.50 to 9.50 and become GP challengers as despite popular opinion on here, they put bums on seats.

Of course they put bums on seats in comparison to non World Class riders...

The more salient question is though...

Do they put enough bums on seats to justify the outlay for them?...

It has been mentioned on here, by some who appear "in the know" at their local tracks, that between 3500 and 5000 quid is the going rate for a World Class rider...

Therefore, taking the lower number, that is 14,000 quid laid our for two World Class level riders, from your home meeting income, for the home and away meetings..

Now, I know sponsorship will cover a fair amount, however, I would suggest laying out around 8,000 quid for those two meetings for "decent" riders, and using 6,000 quid to actually promote the meeting, on a night that is maybe better to attract a crowd, would be the more sensible business plan to follow..

Ipswich fans have suggested that crowds have, in the main, held up this season without last years "Superstars"..

Which, even if there was a drop off of a couple of hundred, must mean a fair net saving on outlay this season, given their current One and Five won't be in the same pay bracket ..

Utopia is every team to have two World Class riders, reality though means they wouldn't cover their income by increasing gates enough to pay their salaries...

My old company has made many managers redundant/retired over the past decade, with, on many occasions, those highest earners the ones who have taken the attractive redundancy/retirement terms on offer..

Are their replacements as good? Nowhere near, given the disparate level of experience and capability, however they are 30-40% cheaper and will gain experience and capability as they develop..

The bottom line though is you could have King Charles himself at No1 for any team, but if hardly anyone outside a select few know the sport itself, never mind the team, exists, then you won't be needing the " House Full" signs outside...

[Aries]

2 hours ago, mikebv said:

Of course they put bums on seats in comparison to non World Class riders...

The more salient question is though...

Do they put enough bums on seats to justify the outlay for them?...

It has been mentioned on here, by some who appear "in the know" at their local tracks, that between 3500 and 5000 quid is the going rate for a World Class rider...

Therefore, taking the lower number, that is 14,000 quid laid our for two World Class level riders, from your home meeting income, for the home and away meetings..

Now, I know sponsorship will cover a fair amount, however, I would suggest laying out around 8,000 quid for those two meetings for "decent" riders, and using 6,000 quid to actually promote the meeting, on a night that is maybe better to attract a crowd, would be the more sensible business plan to follow..

Ipswich fans have suggested that crowds have, in the main, held up this season without last years "Superstars"..

Which, even if there was a drop off of a couple of hundred, must mean a fair net saving on outlay this season, given their current One and Five won't be in the same pay bracket ..

Utopia is every team to have two World Class riders, reality though means they wouldn't cover their income by increasing gates enough to pay their salaries...

My old company has made many managers redundant/retired over the past decade, with, on many occasions, those highest earners the ones who have taken the attractive redundancy/retirement terms on offer..

Are their replacements as good? Nowhere near, given the disparate level of experience and capability, however they are 30-40% cheaper and will gain experience and capability as they develop..

The bottom line though is you could have King Charles himself at No1 for any team, but if hardly anyone outside a select few know the sport itself, never mind the team, exists, then you won't be needing the " House Full" signs outside...

Well I haven’t been one of those. I use my own eyes and I’ve maintained more than once on here, that the crowd levels have taken a fair old hit. I know one or two have said there hasn’t been much difference, but I’m honestly not sure what they’re seeing. My opinion is vastly different.

The Belle Vue meeting a few weeks ago was woeful compared to Belle Vue’s visits in previous seasons. No Bewley but Kurtz was there, Belle Vue meetings usually bring out the bigger crowds at Foxhall generally, and it was a glorious summer evening. I was pretty shocked at the turn out to be frank. 
 

It can’t all be blamed on the loss of Doyle and Emil because there are a couple of other factors including the new TV stream for a tenna less, but I’ve absolutely no doubt the loss of BOTH heatleaders has been the biggest factor.

Talk to literally anyone at the track on meeting day, and they’ll all tell you the same thing, it just hasn’t been close to the same without them.

Go in to next season without both of Bewley or Kurtz, promote Zach Cook to number 1 and see how you get on. Do you think it wouldn’t have THAT much affect on your attendances? I bet it would!!

Take your point about whether the drop off would hurt the finances due to the savings made on not paying the top stars, but that we’ll never know really.

None of us want to be watching speedway in ever decreasing crowd numbers though and that’s what’s happened at Ipswich this year, and would happen at the NSS too if you lost your heatleaders.

Sheffield fans have also commented on the lower crowd levels since Holder got injured. Ask Orion and any other Swindon fan who still browses on here, what happened to their crowd levels when Leigh Adams retired.

Edited Saturday at 05:35 PM by Aries

[Steve Irving]

Richard Coleman

”The sport can’t continue to do the same thing with a little bit less money each year and expect a different result”

In a nutshell. 

[mikebv]

7 minutes ago, Steve Irving said:

Richard Coleman

”The sport can’t continue to do the same thing with a little bit less money each year and expect a different result”

In a nutshell. 

The mantra of the past twenty years on here....

And yet, here we are, still doing the same thing!!.

[Whitelinehugger]

11 minutes ago, Steve Irving said:

Richard Coleman

”The sport can’t continue to do the same thing with a little bit less money each year and expect a different result”

In a nutshell. 

[Daniel Smith]

2 minutes ago, Whitelinehugger said:

What's a nude tan bra got to do with it??

[Whitelinehugger]

1 minute ago, Daniel Smith said:

What's a nude tan bra got to do with it??

 

1 minute ago, Daniel Smith said:

What's a nude tan bra got to do with it??

Steve Irving quoted in a nutshell. So I supplied one

[ouch]

2 hours ago, mikebv said:

Of course they put bums on seats in comparison to non World Class riders...

The more salient question is though...

Do they put enough bums on seats to justify the outlay for them?...

It has been mentioned on here, by some who appear "in the know" at their local tracks, that between 3500 and 5000 quid is the going rate for a World Class rider...

Therefore, taking the lower number, that is 14,000 quid laid our for two World Class level riders, from your home meeting income, for the home and away meetings..

Now, I know sponsorship will cover a fair amount, however, I would suggest laying out around 8,000 quid for those two meetings for "decent" riders, and using 6,000 quid to actually promote the meeting, on a night that is maybe better to attract a crowd, would be the more sensible business plan to follow..

Ipswich fans have suggested that crowds have, in the main, held up this season without last years "Superstars"..

Which, even if there was a drop off of a couple of hundred, must mean a fair net saving on outlay this season, given their current One and Five won't be in the same pay bracket ..

Utopia is every team to have two World Class riders, reality though means they wouldn't cover their income by increasing gates enough to pay their salaries...

My old company has made many managers redundant/retired over the past decade, with, on many occasions, those highest earners the ones who have taken the attractive redundancy/retirement terms on offer..

Are their replacements as good? Nowhere near, given the disparate level of experience and capability, however they are 30-40% cheaper and will gain experience and capability as they develop..

The bottom line though is you could have King Charles himself at No1 for any team, but if hardly anyone outside a select few know the sport itself, never mind the team, exists, then you won't be needing the " House Full" signs outside...

It’s my opinion that crowd levels are hit when the top stars disappear and sponsors too like the idea of being involved with a team sporting a world class rider or two. As has been shown with Belle Vue, Sheffield, Ipswich & Leicester recently is that top stars result in a competitive team. All those teams bar The Aces have dropped a division or closed due to crowds dwindling when success wasn’t on the cards. 

I’m not having it that people don’t know speedway exists in town. I’ve detailed all the many avenues used to enlighten people but the fact is they don’t want to come and that is what needs addressing. I live a few hundred yards from Stockport County and I couldn’t tell you when the next fixture is, what league they are in or who is in the team. The reason is I’m not interested so will not take in any amount of public attention they seek. I don’t like football so have no idea about it and that goes for two of the biggest clubs in the world who are also on my doorstep. This is true of any event in Manchester I’m not interested in and it’s just the way people behave.

[mikebv]

45 minutes ago, Aries said:

Well I haven’t been one of those. I use my own eyes and I’ve maintained more than once on here, that the crowd levels have taken a fair old hit. I know one or two have said there hasn’t been much difference, but I’m honestly not sure what they’re seeing. My opinion is vastly different.

The Belle Vue meeting a few weeks ago was woeful compared to Belle Vue’s visits in previous seasons. No Bewley but Kurtz was there, Belle Vue meetings usually bring out the bigger crowds at Foxhall generally, and it was a glorious summer evening. I was pretty shocked at the turn out to be frank. 
 

It can’t all be blamed on the loss of Doyle and Emil because there are a couple of other factors including the new TV stream for a tenna less, but I’ve absolutely no doubt the loss of BOTH heatleaders has been the biggest factor.

Talk to literally anyone at the track on meeting day, and they’ll all tell you the same thing, it just hasn’t been close to the same without them.

Go in to next season without both of Bewley or Kurtz, promote Zach Cook to number 1 and see how you get on. Do you think it wouldn’t have THAT much affect on your attendances? I bet it would!!

Take your point about whether the drop off would hurt the finances due to the savings made on not paying the top stars, but that we’ll never know really.

None of us want to be watching speedway in ever decreasing crowd numbers though and that’s what’s happened at Ipswich this year, and would happen at the NSS too if you lost your heatleaders.

Sheffield fans have also commented on the lower crowd levels since Holder got injured. Ask Orion and any other Swindon fan who still browses on here, what happened to their crowd levels when Leigh Adams retired.

So, it wasn't the Witches that the fans who have dropped off went to see?... 

Instead, for them, It was their two top riders?...

Presumably, if what you say is correct about the crowds, (and I don't doubt it), then it means that there musn't be enough emotional attachment to the team, but there is to the two top riders?..

If correct, and given the lack of any real prize for wnning it does make sense, you might as well drop the leagues and run individual meetings with big prize purses, with the best riders there...

Like the Manchester GP's showed, make it relevant and you can still get very good attendances..

 

[Steve Irving]

7 minutes ago, mikebv said:

The mantra of the past twenty years on here....

And yet, here we are, still doing the same thing!!.

Never a truer word spoken.

We can only hope things may finally be about to change but it’s definitely a “don’t hold your breath” scenario.

[mikebv]

3 minutes ago, ouch said:

It’s my opinion that crowd levels are hit when the top stars disappear and sponsors too like the idea of being involved with a team sporting a world class rider or two. As has been shown with Belle Vue, Sheffield, Ipswich & Leicester recently is that top stars result in a competitive team. All those teams bar The Aces have dropped a division or closed due to crowds dwindling when success wasn’t on the cards. 

I’m not having it that people don’t know speedway exists in town. I’ve detailed all the many avenues used to enlighten people but the fact is they don’t want to come and that is what needs addressing. I live a few hundred yards from Stockport County and I couldn’t tell you when the next fixture is, what league they are in or who is in the team. The reason is I’m not interested so will not take in any amount of public attention they seek. I don’t like football so have no idea about it and that goes for two of the biggest clubs in the world who are also on my doorstep. This is true of any event in Manchester I’m not interested in and it’s just the way people behave.

But crowds were dropping annually when Sky showed the sport and pretty much every World Class rider rode over here...

There were plenty of inflation busting price increases though at this time, so maybe that was the reason for the drop off, rather than the riders who were there?....

(Or not there as the case often increasingly became, due to "other commitments elsewhere"....)

[Aries]

1 minute ago, mikebv said:

So, it wasn't the Witches that the fans who have dropped off went to see?... 

Instead, for them, It was their two top riders?...

Presumably, if what you say is correct about the crowds, (and I don't doubt it), then it means that there musn't be enough emotional attachment to the team, but there is to the two top riders?..

If correct, and given the lack of any real prize for wnning it does make sense, you might as well drop the leagues and run individual meetings with big prize purses, with the best riders there...

Like the Manchester GP's showed, make it relevant and you can still get very good attendances..

 

I don’t know where you’re really going with this Mike. Fans just won’t watch any old speedway simply because it’s still “The Witches” and I think you know that full well.

The more attractive the line up, the bigger support you will get. That’s just common sense and backed up by general crowd levels you see the lower you go down the pyramid.

Ipswich had decent crowds when they dropped a tier, but that’s by really poor Championship standards. They increased when they moved back up, and they increased again handsomely when the world class top two arrived and stayed consistently healthy during the duration that they were here.

Thats completely natural and understandable. You’ve been beating this drum about the top riders not making a huge difference for years now on here, but I think you’re severely underplaying the difference they actually make.

[mikebv]

11 minutes ago, Aries said:

I don’t know where you’re really going with this Mike. Fans just won’t watch any old speedway simply because it’s still “The Witches” and I think you know that full well.

The more attractive the line up, the bigger support you will get. That’s just common sense and backed up by general crowd levels you see the lower you go down the pyramid.

Ipswich had decent crowds when they dropped a tier, but that’s by really poor Championship standards. They increased when they moved back up, and they increased again handsomely when the world class top two arrived and stayed consistently healthy during the duration that they were here.

Thats completely natural and understandable. You’ve been beating this drum about the top riders not making a huge difference for years now on here, but I think you’re severely underplaying the difference they actually make.

They certainly are a crowd puller, but only within the context of the meeting meaning something...

And only within those who already know who they are...

If BZ suddenly turned up for Northampton then their crowds would double and every away meeting would have their best crowd by miles...

As it would be a huge noveoty so "lapsed fans" would attend, (the very large amount that exist)..

The challenge would be maintaining that level of crowd over the next few years...

The Aces had two of the top three riders last season, but crowds were not good compared to even five years ago with no World Class top three riders.

As I said previously, when this country had all the best riders over here, crowds dropped, which suggests it is either that their presence is over emphasised, or it is the  events themselves that don't engage enough fans to regularly attend..

Edited Saturday at 06:22 PM by mikebv

[Aries]

32 minutes ago, ouch said:

It’s my opinion that crowd levels are hit when the top stars disappear and sponsors too like the idea of being involved with a team sporting a world class rider or two. As has been shown with Belle Vue, Sheffield, Ipswich & Leicester recently is that top stars result in a competitive team. All those teams bar The Aces have dropped a division or closed due to crowds dwindling when success wasn’t on the cards. 

I’m not having it that people don’t know speedway exists in town. I’ve detailed all the many avenues used to enlighten people but the fact is they don’t want to come and that is what needs addressing. I live a few hundred yards from Stockport County and I couldn’t tell you when the next fixture is, what league they are in or who is in the team. The reason is I’m not interested so will not take in any amount of public attention they seek. I don’t like football so have no idea about it and that goes for two of the biggest clubs in the world who are also on my doorstep. This is true of any event in Manchester I’m not interested in and it’s just the way people behave.

Totally agree. From an Ipswich perspective, Ipswich is a sporting Town, and it’s always been a Speedway Town. The people of Ipswich know their speedway and are knowledgeable about the sport in good numbers. They know who the world class riders are and who isn’t. 
 

Of course there’ll be plenty of others who have no idea about Speedway there’s no denying that, but they won’t attend anyway so they’re not the target audience. There are so many who know everything about the sport, have been for years, but are now 50/50 on whether they can be bothered to go anymore or not (I’d put myself in that category).

They're the ones they have to first and foremost entice back on a regular basis. That’s the start. Give them the incentive and a reason to go from 50/50, to “I’m 💯 going to be there Thursday/Monday”.

That begins with having a team worth paying to watch, a world class rider or two that undoubtedly gets more through the turnstiles. More top class riders will increase the chances of TV companies becoming interested again as Richard Coleman points out. Getting a couple more clubs involved to increase variety and fixtures will also help.

With all due respect to the Championship, there’s a reason that hasn’t been shown other than streams.

Get those people back regularly and then they can work on a strategy to get newcomers to start attending also.

I’ve been to a couple of Poole meetings the last couple of season’s and although they still get good crowds (again by Championship standards), they get nowhere near the level they did when they were in the top flight and had peak Holder and Ward amongst others.

Any Poole fan that comes on here and say they do, are lying pure and simple.

Edited Saturday at 06:35 PM by Aries

[Aries]

19 minutes ago, mikebv said:

But crowds were dropping annually when Sky showed the sport and pretty much every World Class rider rode over here...

There were plenty of inflation busting price increases though at this time, so maybe that was the reason for the drop off, rather than the riders who were there?....

(Or not there as the case often increasingly became, due to "other commitments elsewhere"....)

It was still night and day compared to what we all get now!

[Whitelinehugger]

[Arthur73]

2 hours ago, Aries said:

Well I haven’t been one of those. I use my own eyes and I’ve maintained more than once on here, that the crowd levels have taken a fair old hit. I know one or two have said there hasn’t been much difference, but I’m honestly not sure what they’re seeing. My opinion is vastly different.

The Belle Vue meeting a few weeks ago was woeful compared to Belle Vue’s visits in previous seasons. No Bewley but Kurtz was there, Belle Vue meetings usually bring out the bigger crowds at Foxhall generally, and it was a glorious summer evening. I was pretty shocked at the turn out to be frank. 
 

It can’t all be blamed on the loss of Doyle and Emil because there are a couple of other factors including the new TV stream for a tenna less, but I’ve absolutely no doubt the loss of BOTH heatleaders has been the biggest factor.

Talk to literally anyone at the track on meeting day, and they’ll all tell you the same thing, it just hasn’t been close to the same without them.

Go in to next season without both of Bewley or Kurtz, promote Zach Cook to number 1 and see how you get on. Do you think it wouldn’t have THAT much affect on your attendances? I bet it would!!

Take your point about whether the drop off would hurt the finances due to the savings made on not paying the top stars, but that we’ll never know really.

None of us want to be watching speedway in ever decreasing crowd numbers though and that’s what’s happened at Ipswich this year, and would happen at the NSS too if you lost your heatleaders.

Sheffield fans have also commented on the lower crowd levels since Holder got injured. Ask Orion and any other Swindon fan who still browses on here, what happened to their crowd levels when Leigh Adams retired.

Could the crowds also improve if Ipswich raced on a Friday night or on a Sunday afternoon? 

What the audience really lacks in my opinion is jeopardy in the league. The problem now is the playoff system means that the majority of fans don't need to bother much until September. If your team is last don't worry as there is no relegation. Also, you will see the same teams time after time as there are only 5 other teams. 

If we move all teams to the weekend then yes the teams will get worse but likely championship teams will be interested in stepping up. The riders are more affordable so the league will be more competitive, meetings closer and much more difficult to make the playoffs (if we keep that format). 

If we keep trying to bring in a few 'big hitters' it is more of the same. Why don't we try something and if it doesn't work at least speedway goes out with people trying to fix it instead of it's current wimper.

[mikebv]

3 hours ago, Aries said:

It was still night and day compared to what we all get now!

Utopia is eight teams in the top league and all have two World Class riders...

The reality is though that laying out circa £14k per two riders, per team, for two meetings, currently, simply isn't justifiable...

Especially without any TV contract, and also being reliant on Sponsors who may not always afford to keep underwriting the costs.

A Speedway team should only be paying out that kind of money if they are also spending several thousand a week in "non Speedway Bubble" advertising and have a (at least), three times per week online presence on the various digital platforms..

I have just watched a YT content done by a lad who owns a sandwich shop in Yorkshire..

In it, he shares his costs to highlight why a sandwich isn't "a quid" to buy...

During the content he talks about how over the past four years his shop has evolved..

About 12 months ago he went "viral" using his personality and quality of food, now the day to day running is done by his staff, as he is the "face" of the business...

Meaning he spends his time less "hands on" at the shop, but more releasing content and, very importantly as he mentions, monetizing the content as it is bringing in some big money..

Big money from people travelling in from far and wide who have seen him on the various platforms, plus what the considerable amount the gigital platforms are paying him..

As he says, if you don't have major online presence nowadays, you won't be successful...

Who are the online "faces" of the Speedway teams in the UK?

Who are the ones getting paid to keep the team in the digital public eye and generating likes, subscribers, and ultimately, more customers?..

The World Class riders, sadly, don't seem to bring 1000 extra so, in this modern world, why not invest in someone who could?...

Richard Coleman isn't looking at the sport like a fan, or as an ex rider, (which the other promoters were/are), therefore, hopefully he will keep that cold analytical approach and start to influence better use of what is, given the size of the sport, a huge outlay each season to the riders..

Upon reflection. Maybe "utopia" could be one World Class rider per team, with a costed plan to increase their numbers as and when income streams justify it?..

However. With no aggressive digital platform presence, it will all be irrelevant anyway..

 

 

 

Edited Saturday at 09:56 PM by mikebv

[The Cheese]

Read the piece with Richard Coleman in the Speedway Star yesterday and on paper at least, he talks sense. The problem is that whenever 'new blood' comes in, they generally pick up these issues straight away because they're so obvious but they get met with promotors sticking their fingers in their ears as they're happy to continue as it is. We can only hope that he has more success than those in the past.

I agree with his view that there needs to be a greater gap between the top two divisions and I get the impression that with the Poland + 1 league rule next year, he rightly sees that as an opening rather than a threat.

If you have riders in Poland with Britain as their 2nd league then surely that reduces the need for fixed race nights so I don't see why Poole and Glasgow for example couldn't step up and keep their current nights. With a bit of co-operation and planning you could avoid the majority of fixture clashes.

A TV deal would obviously be a necessity for that but the opportunity is maybe there with TNT again. From May next year they'll be without Champions League, Europa League and Conference League football so there is a gap in their schedule and presumably budget to spend. Go to them and ask if there's anything that could be done to encourage them back on board. BSN do a good job but they're preaching to the converted and having TNT (or whoever) involved as well should open more sponsorship doors.

[Aries]

13 minutes ago, The Cheese said:

Read the piece with Richard Coleman in the Speedway Star yesterday and on paper at least, he talks sense. The problem is that whenever 'new blood' comes in, they generally pick up these issues straight away because they're so obvious but they get met with promotors sticking their fingers in their ears as they're happy to continue as it is. We can only hope that he has more success than those in the past.

I agree with his view that there needs to be a greater gap between the top two divisions and I get the impression that with the Poland + 1 league rule next year, he rightly sees that as an opening rather than a threat.

If you have riders in Poland with Britain as their 2nd league then surely that reduces the need for fixed race nights so I don't see why Poole and Glasgow for example couldn't step up and keep their current nights. With a bit of co-operation and planning you could avoid the majority of fixture clashes.

A TV deal would obviously be a necessity for that but the opportunity is maybe there with TNT again. From May next year they'll be without Champions League, Europa League and Conference League football so there is a gap in their schedule and presumably budget to spend. Go to them and ask if there's anything that could be done to encourage them back on board. BSN do a good job but they're preaching to the converted and having TNT (or whoever) involved as well should open more sponsorship doors.

Couldn’t agree more. He definitely sees an opportunity to strengthen the Premiership with both personnel,(quality riders), and number of clubs with the Poland plus 1 rule which will in turn enhance the chances of a new TV deal which he sees as vital to the future planning. 
 

Poole’s biggest issue was apparently Wednesday race nights but there’s no obvious reason they now couldn’t move back up and ride Wednesdays in the Premiership. Just fill your teams with riders who do Poland and UK and not those who do Sweden and Denmark. 
 

The only thing that seems unclear to me and a bit contradictory, is he says he’s concerned about the whole Speedway pyramid below Poland and Speedway as a whole, needs the rest of Europe thriving too. 
 

If any rider worth his salt chooses Poland and what he and us want, UK, then what does that do for Sweden and Denmark?